Effective ways to prevent Old World diseases from killing so many Native Americans ?

[Petike]

By Native Americans, I mean all pre-Columbian inhabitants of the Americas, from the Arctic to Tierra del Fuego. In OTL, many of the different native cultures succumbed to Old World diseases they never could have developed immunity for, up until that point (due to a multitude of factors). Europeans explorers, conquistadors and colonists bringing in all manner of diseases common in the late-medieval and early modern period was a major contributing issue in the large die-offs among Native American populations, aside from military conquest. Granted, plenty of natives also survived and developed immunity over time, but if their ancestors had no exposure to such diseases for thousands of years, it was difficult to resist them at first.

That brings me to my central question: If a very small group of Old Worlders (ca 30-40) were shipwrecked in the Americas (post-Vikings, but pre-Columbus), would they still pose a disease threat to the natives ?

I am writing a story about medieval castaways in North America, and this has been one of my major issues. How to prevent easy spreading of disease among Amerindians met by that group of castaways. As every person is an individual, I am not convinced every 14th/15th century European would be riddled with diseases and infect all natives by merely standing a few meters from them. I don't think it would be that extreme, but the truth is, there is still a clear danger the castaways could inadvertently infect the natives with something. This could obviously add to the tension between the two groups, even if previous relations were amicable. For the story to work, I need to figure out a way to minimize the impact of the potential diseases.

Any thoughts ?

 

[twovultures]

No, most likely they would not.

The Spanish made multiple landings in what's now Mexico, but it was not until several expeditions in-the one sent to capture Cortez, incidentally-that smallpox was actually introduced. And this was after thousands of Spaniards immigrated to the New World, and after they had started bringing in African slaves as well. Sick adults are not likely to embark on voyages, and even if they did, at this point in history the length of time of the trip would mean that they would most likely not be contagious by the time the trip was over.

I'd say that, for the purposes of your story, you're fine. A handful of castaways could very plausibly not introduce any infectious diseases to the Americas.

 

[Lampiao]

That brings me to my central question: If a very small group of Old Worlders (ca 30-40) were shipwrecked in the Americas (post-Vikings, but pre-Columbus), would they still pose a disease threat to the natives ?

Probably not enough, the issue is homogeneity in the population. Just think of the group of Russian Old Believers mentioned in the other thread. They fled to the most isolated areas of Siberia after the revolution only to die like flies a few decsdes laters when they contacted Soviet scientists in the 60s.

 

[Petike]

No, most likely they would not.

The Spanish made multiple landings in what's now Mexico, but it was not until several expeditions in-the one sent to capture Cortez, incidentally-that smallpox was actually introduced. And this was after thousands of Spaniards immigrated to the New World, and after they had started bringing in African slaves as well. Sick adults are not likely to embark on voyages, and even if they did, at this point in history the length of time of the trip would mean that they would most likely not be contagious by the time the trip was over.

I'd say that, for the purposes of your story, you're fine. A handful of castaways could very plausibly not introduce any infectious diseases to the Americas.

The people in my story are mostly sailors and fishermen (Basque, French, etc.), so my own rationale for why the diseases would not spread that easily is that they're out at sea for most of the year. Their medical issues will be more closely related to the lack of good nourishment on a longer fishing voyage in the Atlantic. A few landlubber types that might happen to be among the crew and be diseases carriers could die soon into the ill-fated voyage, or after reaching the New World.

What would be the most probable disease brought along by the castaways from Europe ?

Probably not enough, the issue is homogeneity in the population. Just think of the group of Russian Old Believers mentioned in the other thread. They fled to the most isolated areas of Siberia after the revolution only to die like flies a few decsdes laters when they contacted Soviet scientists in the 60s.

Yes, a good comparative example. So the idea is to keep the group reasonably small, and then any and all exposure can be fairly minimal.

 

[Escape Zeppelin]

I agree with twovultures. The weeks/months at sea required to reach the Americas usually acted as a quarantine (a practice medieval Europe was well aware of). In all likelihood asymptomatic carriers probably had as much to do with the spread of diseases as a sick person.

 

[Ogrebear]

Another possible way is for the Viking expositions to survive and spread their genes and immunities through the Tribes.

 

[Prince de Pringondani]

What if the European Castaways were a crew of Portugese sailors who came from West Africa with some mosquitos with malaria and Yellow Fever This happens 60 years before Columbus ?

 

[Lusitania]

Except that people can be carriers for disease and not be aware of it. Native American exposure to a common cold could trigger an epidemic just as much as small pox.

FYI small pox virus can live for long period of time in clothing or blankets. So any exposure could lead spreading of disease.

Also people at time did not understand the concept of infection and disease not spreading it. Many attributed disease as a punishment from god.

 

[Mina-van-Mako]

Are some people in your TL staying ? And do they mix with natives ? Do they have child together ? If they have children, do those children blend in Native societies. Depending on how much European blood you have in Native tribes, you would have more immunity (I guess) and if you have enough travels between the two continents they might end up resisting a bit better.

 

[Petike]

Are some people in your TL staying ? And do they mix with natives ? Do they have child together ? If they have children, do those children blend in Native societies. Depending on how much European blood you have in Native tribes, you would have more immunity (I guess) and if you have enough travels between the two continents they might end up resisting a bit better.

I haven't entirely decided yet, but I have planned that some of the castaways could stay there permanently, intermarry and assimilate into the natives. Some of the other castaways attempt to return to Europe across the Atlantic. I suppose only the coastal nationalities they'll come into contact with could build up some immunity, through both mundane contact and intermarrying. Bear in mind, this is a small group and they're no out to conquer or colonise, just survive. To that end, they need the natives. And anyone of them planning to stay in the New World will have to have good relations with the locals, be accepted.

What if the European Castaways were a crew of Portugese sailors who came from West Africa with some mosquitos with malaria and Yellow Fever This happens 60 years before Columbus ?

While that is an interesting premise in and of itself, my story is going for a different angle.

Except that people can be carriers for disease and not be aware of it. Native American exposure to a common cold could trigger an epidemic just as much as small pox.

The common cold is not a disease, it is a state you can find yourself in. Now, things like quinsy, or influenza, those are real threats.

FYI small pox virus can live for long period of time in clothing or blankets. So any exposure could lead spreading of disease.

I know. This is one of the biggest bogeymen and it is not easy to get rid of it just like that. I'm thinking of ways to keep the threat, but also minimise it to the point that it doesn't just make the story crumble immediately.

One of the elements of the story I've thought about is that an affected native group will realise the connection between a source of smallpox (or anything else) and try to isolate their individuals or those of the castaways to prevent further spreading. They might not know about quarantine, but with the thing spreading, they might come to the realisation that it's for the best if they keep away.

Also people at time did not understand the concept of infection and disease not spreading it. Many attributed disease as a punishment from God.

Of course. If they understood it at all, loosely, it was an inaccurate understanding. After the Black Death, people thought that polluted air (bad vapours) or the rats alone were responsible for the massive plague (if they didn't think it was just divine punishment). They didn't realise the real carriers were bacteria-infected fleas. It took a while until that dawned on everyone, by the early modern era.

 

[Lusitania]

I haven't entirely decided yet, but I have planned that some of the castaways could stay there permanently, intermarry and assimilate into the natives. Some of the other castaways attempt to return to Europe across the Atlantic. I suppose only the coastal nationalities they'll come into contact with could build up some immunity, through both mundane contact and intermarrying. Bear in mind, this is a small group and they're no out to conquer or colonise, just survive. To that end, they need the natives. And anyone of them planning to stay in the New World will have to have good relations with the locals, be accepted.



While that is an interesting premise in and of itself, my story is going for a different angle.

While the arrival of small group of Europeans might give some people a impression that natives become imune to future European diseases current knowledge of Diseases tell us otherwise.

There is no guarantee the settlers were exposed to the diseases and are imune to future diseases a few centuries in the future. The biggest benefit would be new technologies and way of thinking.

Also if the coastal nations grow in strength there is no guarantee that their descends decide not to expand into neighboring tribes and over time technology and weapons will be adapted. So yes EuropeNs in the 15-16th century will find America different from iOTL but not as much resistant to European diseases.

 

[Petike]

While the arrival of small group of Europeans might give some people a impression that natives become imune to future European diseases current knowledge of Diseases tell us otherwise.

There is no guarantee the settlers were exposed to the diseases and are imune to future diseases a few centuries in the future. The biggest benefit would be new technologies and way of thinking.

Also if the coastal nations grow in strength there is no guarantee that their descends decide not to expand into neighboring tribes and over time technology and weapons will be adapted. So yes EuropeNs in the 15-16th century will find America different from iOTL but not as much resistant to European diseases.

Bear in mind, the European characters in the story are not settlers. They're castaways. They didn't come there to stay, at all, willingly or otherwise. They got there by accident and most of them want to return home and probably never go back. A group of barely 40 people won't be ordering the natives around, especially given that they're commoners. They'll be at the mercy of the natives and the environment. Given that they're ordinary guys and not soldiers or noblemen, I think there is some probability for good relations with locals, even if they are two culturally very different groups.

Can't speak for other implementations of the idea, though.

 

[Lampiao]

The problem of castaways is they probably already existed IOTL to an extent. It was common Iberian practice to simply take some undesirables (mostly Jews and criminals) let them live amongst natives and come back a few years later to see if they have learn something from the natives.

 

[Petike]

The problem of castaways is they probably already existed IOTL to an extent. It was common Iberian practice to simply take some undesirables (mostly Jews and criminals) let them live amongst natives and come back a few years later to see if they have learn something from the natives.

I'd like to see some resources on that claim.

This is meant to be set early in the 15th century (to further drive that "got there accidentally" aspect of the story). No one knows about the New World yet. No one will be sending prisoners to their death in the New World. Sending them to die somewhere in the Atlantic, that I can imagine, but even that is ridiculously wasteful of ships. Shipbuilding in those times was a professional, time and resources consuming process, it's not like clicking and insta-building a wooden sailship in a computer game and then throwing it away for a silly reason.

 

[Lusitania]

Bear in mind, the European characters in the story are not settlers. They're castaways. They didn't come there to stay, at all, willingly or otherwise. They got there by accident and most of them want to return home and probably never go back. A group of barely 40 people won't be ordering the natives around, especially given that they're commoners. They'll be at the mercy of the natives and the environment. Given that they're ordinary guys and not soldiers or noblemen, I think there is some probability for good relations with locals, even if they are two culturally very different groups.

Can't speak for other implementations of the idea, though.

But these new people will have new ideas such as farming, ladders maybe iron making and so forth. Depending on how theses ideas are presented and how successfully they are implemented and adopted we could see these tribes grow in strength and size.

As for the “potential” immunization of future diseases that is very debatable. It could be that even that small a group could still be carrying diseases that could devastate native groups they encounter.

 

[Escape Zeppelin]

Also people at time did not understand the concept of infection and disease not spreading it. Many attributed disease as a punishment from god.

Of course. If they understood it at all, loosely, it was an inaccurate understanding. After the Black Death, people thought that polluted air (bad vapours) or the rats alone were responsible for the massive plague (if they didn't think it was just divine punishment). They didn't realise the real carriers were bacteria-infected fleas. It took a while until that dawned on everyone, by the early modern era.

They didn't understand exactly what disease was but they weren't stupid. Ever since the Black Death in the 1300's quarantines were very common throughout Europe, especially for maritime travelers with many harbor cities establishing permanent lazarets and dedicated health inspectors for ships. People and ships which might carry disease were placed in quarantine for upwards of 40 days (which is where the word quarantine comes from). They were very well aware that disease spread between people and was contagious. A sailor from 14th/15th century Europe would have extensive knowledge of maritime quarantine procedures (procedures that remained largely unchanged until the 19th c.) and probably first hand experience.

 

[Lusitania]

Also castaways be they single or small group of few dozen did wash up on American coast and had no significant impact to the native population either technological or imune.

 

[Lusitania]

They didn't understand exactly what disease was but they weren't stupid. Ever since the Black Death in the 1300's quarantines were very common throughout Europe, especially for maritime travelers with many harbor cities establishing permanent lazarets and dedicated health inspectors for ships. People and ships which might carry disease were placed in quarantine for upwards of 40 days (which is where the word quarantine comes from). They were very well aware that disease spread between people and was contagious. A sailor from 14th/15th century Europe would have extensive knowledge of maritime quarantine procedures (procedures that were so effective that they remained largely unchanged until the 19th c.) and probably first hand experience.

But as castaways hungry and desperate for shelter the last thing they would think was I need to quarantine myself. No quarantine only existed in places where locals enforced it.

 

[Petike]

They didn't understand exactly what disease was but they weren't stupid. Ever since the Black Death in the 1300's quarantines were very common throughout Europe, especially for maritime travelers with many harbor cities establishing permanent lazarets and dedicated health inspectors for ships. People and ships which might carry disease were placed in quarantine for upwards of 40 days (which is where the word quarantine comes from). They were very well aware that disease spread between people and was contagious. A sailor from 14th/15th century Europe would have extensive knowledge of maritime quarantine procedures (procedures that remained largely unchanged until the 19th c.) and probably first hand experience.

That's what I pointed to. No real scientific knowledge, but practical knowledge gained from past experience influencing precautions, certainly.

Also castaways be they single or small group of few dozen did wash up on American coast and had no significant impact to the native population either technological or imune.

A bold claim to make. Is there any sort of archaeological or historical evidence of this, post-Vikings or pre-Columbus ? I don't know of any.

I'm intensely skeptical of claims like this, since they often tend to get entangled with the usual pseudohistorical claims about "the Templars sailing to America and building the Newport Tower" (BS) or "Zheng He got to America for sure... because I said so !" (BS) and other highly improbable weirdness. To the best of my knowledge, before Columbus and Cabot, no non-Scandinavian European ever visited the Americas.

 

[Lusitania]

That's what I pointed to. No real scientific knowledge, but practical knowledge gained from past experience influencing precautions, certainly.



A bold claim to make. Is there any sort of archaeological or historical evidence of this, post-Vikings or pre-Columbus ? I don't know of any.

I'm intensely skeptical of claims like this, since they often tend to get entangled with the usual pseudohistorical claims about "the Templars sailing to America and building the Newport Tower" (BS) or "Zheng He got to America for sure... because I said so !" (BS) and other highly improbable weirdness. To the best of my knowledge, before Columbus and Cabot, no non-Scandinavian European ever visited the Americas.

There were several documented tales of Roman coins found by settlers in 16th century.

As for their impact it is minimal since they with assimilated or died without any impact.