Lusitania

Donor
Listen if you feel that you have a great idea for a TL I am not going to stop you from writing it.

Many readers have questions my Portugal TLs as being ASB since to some iOTL Portuguese history is already ASB so any increase in Portuguese strength rubs them the wrong way I guess.

So write it, all I wanted to bring to your attention was that the imune to European diseases is very little to none. Also that a group of 40 or so castaways will have other impacts.
 

Maoistic

Banned
Listen if you feel that you have a great idea for a TL I am not going to stop you from writing it.

Many readers have questions my Portugal TLs as being ASB since to some iOTL Portuguese history is already ASB so any increase in Portuguese strength rubs them the wrong way I guess.

So write it, all I wanted to bring to your attention was that the imune to European diseases is very little to none. Also that a group of 40 or so castaways will have other impacts.
Explain why is it that these ultra-defenceless natives resisted European incursions in today's United States and Canada until late in the 19th century, even using European mercenaries and vice versa during this four century period, or why there's a 30 year period of massive cultural exchange between Tainos and Spaniards between 1492 and 1519 when Cortes's invasion of Mexico begins. In fact, why is it that the Portuguese colonised Brazil extremely gradually, why the Guyanas needed to be conquered by the Dutch, the southern Antilles by the Dutch, the English and the French, and why the Inca Empire wasn't fully conquered until 1572, over 40 years after Pizarro's campaign started?

We shouldn't talk of "effective ways of prevention" in the first place because Native Americans weren't any more susceptible to European diseases than Europeans themselves.
 
There were several documented tales of Roman coins found by settlers in 16th century.

I've never heard of this. Are you sure this isn't some fanciful claim ? There's been a long history of trying to argue every other nation from antiquity reached the Americas, with zilch evidence provided.

As for their impact it is minimal since they with assimilated or died without any impact.

That I of course agree with. Something similar will happen in my story.

We shouldn't talk of "effective ways of prevention" in the first place because Native Americans weren't any more susceptible to European diseases than Europeans themselves.

Sadly, they were more susceptible. A few Old World style diseases simply weren't present in the Americas, and without their presence, you can't build immunity against them. So a greater degree of danger posed by diseases was certainly there. Doesn't mean they'll all drop dead the instant some European dude gives them a handshake.
 
Explain why is it that these ultra-defenceless natives resisted European incursions in today's United States and Canada until late in the 19th century,
The land was awful and there was no reason for the US to conquer them all at once, but rather as waves of settlers came and the US had to “evict” the natives from the native land. The US and Britain had no impetus to go ahead and conquer vast swaths of native lands without their own settlers there or wanting to be there.

even using European mercenaries and vice versa during this four century period, or why there's a 30 year period of massive cultural exchange between Tainos and Spaniards between 1492 and 1519 when Cortes's invasion of Mexico begins.
Spain obviously upon discovery of the New World acted like any other nation would: tepidly though excitedly. The thirty years are because they didn’t immediately go “argh we want conquer grrrrr” but instead only did so once certain stories reached them (from said cultural exchange with the Taino) and as they consolidated the Caribbean. Also note that it was an individual that had the idea of invasion, and it was later sponsored by Spain when he asked for it. It wasn’t a state-led affair at all, so the thirty years waiting for a crazy-enough and cruel-enough individual make even more sense. No reason to invade the Mexica when the island natives are putting up enough problems as is.

In fact, why is it that the Portuguese colonised Brazil extremely gradually, why the Guyanas needed to be conquered by the Dutch, the southern Antilles by the Dutch, the English and the French, and why the Inca Empire wasn't fully conquered until 1572, over 40 years after Pizarro's campaign started?
What point are you even trying to make? Colonization takes time, because colonization takes people. Theoretically, it would have been materially possible for it to happen faster, but because it is an inherently political and capitalistic procedure, people had to be convinced to get rid of their entire livelihoods and lives in the Old World to take a chance in a new one. Of course it wouldn’t happen immediately. Also, no one ever said Native Americans, north and south, didn’t resist and resist well, like you seem to be implying about what we’ve said.

We shouldn't talk of "effective ways of prevention" in the first place because Native Americans weren't any more susceptible to European diseases than Europeans themselves.
Aaaaaand this pseudoscientific bullshit again.

I’m not even saying anything more to this, this has already been discussed and debunked at length in another thread, and this entire belief of yours stems from a misreading of a book of essays, which never claims what you’re getting from it, instead saying that the natural susceptibility was drastically increased by certain political and military pressures on the part of the Europeans, something that makes sense. Instead, you have twisted it to say that only those pressures had anything to do with it, which is, of course, bullshit.

If so, how do you explain the Old Believers in Siberia who had no contact with the Old World trading network and were almost completely isolated, matching the same criterion as the Native Americans? Once discovered by a Soviet team of scientists, they almost all died (within a very short period of time) of respiratory diseases which did not affect the Soviets nearly as badly.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Explain why is it that these ultra-defenceless natives resisted European incursions in today's United States and Canada until late in the 19th century, even using European mercenaries and vice versa during this four century period, or why there's a 30 year period of massive cultural exchange between Tainos and Spaniards between 1492 and 1519 when Cortes's invasion of Mexico begins. In fact, why is it that the Portuguese colonised Brazil extremely gradually, why the Guyanas needed to be conquered by the Dutch, the southern Antilles by the Dutch, the English and the French, and why the Inca Empire wasn't fully conquered until 1572, over 40 years after Pizarro's campaign started.

We shouldn't talk of "effective ways of prevention" in the first place because Native Americans weren't any more susceptible to European diseases than Europeans themselves.

When you said resisted I would be cautious because there is record of many large Indian population being reduced in size after European contact. So there will some effect but we probable not see complete disimation but we will see reduction in population. Also the impact to the population is over decades not immediate (unless we discussing a single village).

But more importantly there will be little to no immunization of native population.
 

Maoistic

Banned
When you said resisted I would be cautious because there is record of many large Indian population being reduced in size after European contact.

There is a record of reduction when there is war with Europeans and violent subjugation and segregation by them, not mere "contact". See the 30 year period between Columbus and Cortes in the Caribbean. I can also mention the 500 year period of trading between Inuits and Norse, which actually ended with the Norse being expelled. I know this is a crass analogy, but people seriously speak as if Europeans are Haki or Reiatsu crushing Native Americans like the fodder characters of One Piece and Bleach.

So there will some effect but we probable not see complete disimation but we will see reduction in population. Also the impact to the population is over decades not immediate (unless we discussing a single village).

But more importantly there will be little to no immunization of native population.

And there is literally no evidence of lack of immunity as David S. Jones's article "Virgin Soils Revisited" shows other than a misreading of Spanish sources and taking at face value hyperbolical statements of whole areas being literally desolated of natives. There was mass death, for sure, but this was a far more gradual process due to warfare, intensive labour, displacement and segregation, the process in Latin America and the Caribbean lasting several decades (about 150 years in fact) and the process in North America being even more gradual due to how the European advance was far slower there.
 

Maoistic

Banned
The land was awful and there was no reason for the US to conquer them all at once, but rather as waves of settlers came and the US had to “evict” the natives from the native land. The US and Britain had no impetus to go ahead and conquer vast swaths of native lands without their own settlers there or wanting to be there.

Or natives with guns are difficult to subjugate. Who woulda thunk.


Spain obviously upon discovery of the New World acted like any other nation would: tepidly though excitedly. The thirty years are because they didn’t immediately go “argh we want conquer grrrrr” but instead only did so once certain stories reached them (from said cultural exchange with the Taino) and as they consolidated the Caribbean. Also note that it was an individual that had the idea of invasion, and it was later sponsored by Spain when he asked for it. It wasn’t a state-led affair at all, so the thirty years waiting for a crazy-enough and cruel-enough individual make even more sense. No reason to invade the Mexica when the island natives are putting up enough problems as is.

The point is that mere contact isn't what killed them. Warfare, segregation, displacement and intensive labour was. If the Spaniards only keep trading, they're not depopulating anything.


What point are you even trying to make? Colonization takes time, because colonization takes people. Theoretically, it would have been materially possible for it to happen faster, but because it is an inherently political and capitalistic procedure, people had to be convinced to get rid of their entire livelihoods and lives in the Old World to take a chance in a new one. Of course it wouldn’t happen immediately. Also, no one ever said Native Americans, north and south, didn’t resist and resist well, like you seem to be implying about what we’ve said.

Yes, people here say that natives didn't resist well, and historians constantly talk as if Europeans, especially the Spaniards, swept their way through the Americas when they didn't. And the point is to show how, if diseases were really so bad, so quickly spread and so debilitating and were the principal cause of the genocide, then we shouldn't be seeing such a long period of resistance. I'm not even mentioning the several revolts that kept occurring during the entirety of European colonial rule.


Aaaaaand this pseudoscientific bullshit again.

I’m not even saying anything more to this, this has already been discussed and debunked at length in another thread, and this entire belief of yours stems from a misreading of a book of essays, which never claims what you’re getting from it, instead saying that the natural susceptibility was drastically increased by certain political and military pressures on the part of the Europeans, something that makes sense. Instead, you have twisted it to say that only those pressures had anything to do with it, which is, of course, bullshit.

If so, how do you explain the Old Believers in Siberia who had no contact with the Old World trading network and were almost completely isolated, matching the same criterion as the Native Americans? Once discovered by a Soviet team of scientists, they almost all died (within a very short period of time) of respiratory diseases which did not affect the Soviets nearly as badly.

www.jstor.org/stable/3491697
 

Lusitania

Donor
There is a record of reduction when there is war with Europeans and violent subjugation and segregation by them, not mere "contact". See the 30 year period between Columbus and Cortes in the Caribbean. I can also mention the 500 year period of trading between Inuits and Norse, which actually ended with the Norse being expelled. I know this is a crass analogy, but people seriously speak as if Europeans are Haki or Reiatsu crushing Native Americans like the fodder characters of One Piece and Bleach.



And there is literally no evidence of lack of immunity as David S. Jones's article "Virgin Soils Revisited" shows other than a misreading of Spanish sources and taking at face value hyperbolical statements of whole areas being literally desolated of natives. There was mass death, for sure, but this was a far more gradual process due to warfare, intensive labour, displacement and segregation, the process in Latin America and the Caribbean lasting several decades (about 150 years in fact) and the process in North America being even more gradual due to how the European advance was far slower there.


Listen I do not know where you getting your information. We cannot state that half hundred odd survivors sick and hungry are going to have no impact to the natives in terms of infecting them with diseases, provide no technological advantage and somehow miraculously give them immunization to European diseases that they had not been infected yet and are going to mutate between the time they arrived in America and next group of Europeans show up.
 
Or natives with guns are difficult to subjugate. Who woulda thunk.

The point is that mere contact isn't what killed them. Warfare, segregation, displacement and intensive labour was. If the Spaniards only keep trading, they're not depopulating anything.

Yes, people here say that natives didn't resist well, and historians constantly talk as if Europeans, especially the Spaniards, swept their way through the Americas when they didn't. And the point is to show how, if diseases were really so bad, so quickly spread and so debilitating and were the principal cause of the genocide, then we shouldn't be seeing such a long period of resistance. I'm not even mentioning the several revolts that kept occurring during the entirety of European colonial rule.

www.jstor.org/stable/3491697
Yes, natives with guns are difficult to subjugate. I was just focusing on the macrohistorical reason for them not all natives immediately being conquered. Nobody is arguing against that point.

Yes, the disease would depopulate. I notice you haven’t addressed my point about the Old Believers in Siberia.

“People here” say that, huh? Well good thing nobody in this discussion is. Nice baseless claim, though.

Those who lived still resisted, there is no reason for them not to have. This entire train of thought is, for lack of a better word, stupid. Yes, the diseases were bad. The horrific mass-killing of natives being primarily due to disease, however, has absolutely nothing to do with whether they fight back against the Europeans. Nothing.

And I don’t have a JSTOR account, but that article from the first page did not seem to be gearing up to say that disease ha d”nothing to do with it” as you claim.

Also, I thought your entire theory here is from that one book you kept citing until I demonstrated how it says the exact opposite of your point and then you mysteriously stopped referencing it? Is this article part of that book? Because it wouldn’t be included in the book based on the book’s arguments. And, if not, I find it hilarious that instead of admitting a faulty argument you go to find some other paper to justify yourself.
 

Maoistic

Banned
Listen I do not know where you getting your information. We cannot state that half hundred odd survivors sick and hungry are going to have no impact to the natives in terms of infecting them with diseases, provide no technological advantage and somehow miraculously give them immunization to European diseases that they had not been infected yet and are going to mutate between the time they arrived in America and next group of Europeans show up.

There's no lack of immunity in the first place, and Columbus's crew (which I take it refers to the "half hundred odd survivors sick and hungry") didn't infect even the small population of the Lucayas in actual history. The same happened with the Norse as well who traded and even had skirmishes with Inuits for 500 years without depopulating Greenland at all and even ending with the Norse getting expelled instead.
 
Do I have to quote your sources again? Did you even read the study?

American Indians could certainly mount immune responses to European pathogens. Perhaps their "naivete" left them without protective genes, making them incrementally susceptible. Perhaps their homogeneity left them vulnerable to adaptable pathogens.

The researcher is only suggesting a different (and, according to himself, unprovable) way to look at it from his medical point-of-view. Still, he states clearly that the general narrative confirmed by most of historiography and contemporary sources also make sense from his medical point-of-view.

To sum it up, he's saying "hey, I have an interesting theory about what happened that might blow up your minds, but everything that has been said for the last 500 years may also be right". Thus, if you're going to stick with an unprovable fringe theory suggested by a single paper, go for it. Just don't expect the others to buy it.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Current historians has estimated that pre-Colombian Indians population decreased by close to 90%. This was not due to war but vast majority loss to disease.
 
Current historians has estimated that pre-Colombian Indians population decreased by close to 90%. This was not due to war but vast majority loss to disease.
Although not always old world diseases, local hemorragic fever played a big role in Mexico during the 16th century.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Although not always old world diseases, local hemorragic fever played a big role in Mexico during the 16th century.
But we do not know how this virus had mutated due to introduction of new virus. If the Spanish had never appeared there good chance the disease would not of had the same affect.
 
But we do not know how this virus had mutated due to introduction of new virus. If the Spanish had never appeared there good chance the disease would not of had the same affect.
Eh I'm not so sure, the droughts that preceded those were mostly natural, maybe the virus changed but considering it's ultimately native I would say that a native controlled Mexico during the 16th century would have still suffered from a population decline, at least if the climate is not butterflied away.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Eh I'm not so sure, the droughts that preceded those were mostly natural, maybe the virus changed but considering it's ultimately native I would say that a native controlled Mexico during the 16th century would have still suffered from a population decline, at least if the climate is not butterflied away.
Yes while any suffering or death due to natural occurrence. But what we discuss is the mutation of existing new world diseases. Which today with modern technologies happens on regular basis.
 
Dear Maoistic you didn't react to me on another Thread but perhaps you react now.How come the Portugese Spanish Dutch and so on didn't killthe indigenous peoples of Africa and Asia they started there also colonial Wars but they could kill them by such large numbers(not untill the Age of Modern Imperialism)Were the Aztects Inca's such a bad warriors not able to stand a few Conquistadores?Ignoring the impact of diseasses looks naive or even stupid(sorry)
 

Lusitania

Donor
Dear Maoistic you didn't react to me on another Thread but perhaps you react now.How come the Portugese Spanish Dutch and so on didn't killthe indigenous peoples of Africa and Asia they started there also colonial Wars but they could kill them by such large numbers(not untill the Age of Modern Imperialism)Were the Aztects Inca's such a bad warriors not able to stand a few Conquistadores?Ignoring the impact of diseasses looks naive or even stupid(sorry)

Actually the basic reason was that both Africa and Asia did have contact with old world virus, so nothing new to contaminate. As for death toll some continue to state it was war and famine that caused the huge America's death tolls but when America's native population drop close to 90% in the next two centuries after the arrival of Europeans it was in large part to the old world diseases that caused collapse in traditional societies. As for the Aztec and Inca there may be other who have better knowledge but for most part luck was on the Spanish side. The Aztec were brought down by an alliance of Spanish and other Aztec enemies, while Inca has the misfortune of having their king captured by the Spanish who then somehow subjugated the whole empire.
 
Of course the American indigenous population was decimated by diseases that had no experience with. It happened to the Faroe islanders when they were exposed to measles. It even happened to rural Americans when exposed to diseases like measles for the first time in civil war camps. When plague returned to Europe in 1361 it targeted those born after the initial plague wave. It has nothing to do with genetics. Any inexperienced population or section of a population without previous exposure will suffer disproportionately when exposed to a new disease. Any time and any where.
 
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