You havent really placed it ITTL threads. And the fact tjat Maximilian already lost the support of th e Mexicans when he signed the Black decree. The fact that it is quite unlikely that they survive. That long periods of time, He is divisive leader that ruined the support of his conservative base and an Emperor placed by the french as a puppet at gunpoint to the Mexicans. They barely control Mexico Most of Mexico is at the hands of Juaristas, the Imperialistas only controlled a number of major towns and cities. central and south Mexico is in rebellion against max (Unconvential guerilla resistance) and a few convential resistance. Most of the troops in there are in the North, Pursuing the Main force of Juaristas, Why would the US recognize it. If it is very likely that they will just collapse and have Juarez back. The fact that the Confederates giving that amount of support is unlikely. And majority of the troops of the empire is french, They already lost 3/4 of their fighting power when the french left
Down in Dixie: CSA Victory TL
- Thread starter Jabe Thomas
- Start date
V: 1885: Blues vs Grays Part 2
When the Confederacy introduced tolls to the Union for access to the Mississippi River. President Levi Morton would use this as casus belli to go to war with the Confederates. He didn't immediately declare war on the South as he was readying his troops and volunteers. Curry would take another approach by asking each state to furnish a number of soliders for the war. The number of soldiers numbered 300,000 for the Confederacy and 500,000 for the Union. Curry would name Robert E Lee Jr, the General in Chief of the Confederate Army, while Morton would name James McPherson as the General in Chief of the Union Army. With preparations in place, Morton declared war on the Confederate States on April 28, initiating the Great American War. Morton sent McPherson the objectives for the war via telegram, take Richmond and the Mississippi River and by then they would have cut the Confederacy into two and force the Confederacy into total surrender. Curry wanted a defensive strategy keep the Union at bay long enough to break down the Union's will to fight similarly to the Confederate War of Independence. As months and the war dragged on. The Confederacy was putting a strong defense repulsing the Union at every turn at New Orleans, it was clear that the Confederacy wouldn't have enough men to sustain a war against the Union. They needed more men and fast, one Upper Southern state, Virginia took matter into their own hands, fearing invasion and a siege of Richmond, the state legislature would pass a law that would shock the whole country, abolition of slavery in their borders and immediately allowing Curry to enlist them into the war. This began a hot issue in the 1885 Confederate States presidential campaign in the midst of a war, James Longstreet, the Vice President during the time, was running against Robert Withers, a Senator from Virginia, ironically. He disagreed with the decision of the state legislature. Longstreet said that his administration would pass a law allowing for states to abolish slavery if they wished to do so, he also ran on his war record, saying that he could see the war through. On November 3, 1885. It was a landslide victory, Longstreet was elected by all the states unanimously. Becoming the first one to do so since Jefferson Davis.
When the Confederacy introduced tolls to the Union for access to the Mississippi River. President Levi Morton would use this as casus belli to go to war with the Confederates. He didn't immediately declare war on the South as he was readying his troops and volunteers. Curry would take another approach by asking each state to furnish a number of soliders for the war. The number of soldiers numbered 300,000 for the Confederacy and 500,000 for the Union. Curry would name Robert E Lee Jr, the General in Chief of the Confederate Army, while Morton would name James McPherson as the General in Chief of the Union Army. With preparations in place, Morton declared war on the Confederate States on April 28, initiating the Great American War. Morton sent McPherson the objectives for the war via telegram, take Richmond and the Mississippi River and by then they would have cut the Confederacy into two and force the Confederacy into total surrender. Curry wanted a defensive strategy keep the Union at bay long enough to break down the Union's will to fight similarly to the Confederate War of Independence. As months and the war dragged on. The Confederacy was putting a strong defense repulsing the Union at every turn at New Orleans, it was clear that the Confederacy wouldn't have enough men to sustain a war against the Union. They needed more men and fast, one Upper Southern state, Virginia took matter into their own hands, fearing invasion and a siege of Richmond, the state legislature would pass a law that would shock the whole country, abolition of slavery in their borders and immediately allowing Curry to enlist them into the war. This began a hot issue in the 1885 Confederate States presidential campaign in the midst of a war, James Longstreet, the Vice President during the time, was running against Robert Withers, a Senator from Virginia, ironically. He disagreed with the decision of the state legislature. Longstreet said that his administration would pass a law allowing for states to abolish slavery if they wished to do so, he also ran on his war record, saying that he could see the war through. On November 3, 1885. It was a landslide victory, Longstreet was elected by all the states unanimously. Becoming the first one to do so since Jefferson Davis.
VI: 1886: Fight Dixie, Fight!
James Longstreet would be the 5th President of the Confederacy, Longstreet would later recall in his memoir. That Curry would tell him in meeting with him to be sworn in "I sincerely hope you lead us unscathed, through this turbulent affair with the North, because if we lose, I will be its last leader." By the time of the spring, the Union had broken through the defense of Dixie and the Union had taken New Orleans, yielding control of the Mississippi River to the Union. Longstreet needed to take of the Confederate Armys dwindling manpower as he turned to passing the State Abolition Act of 1886 allowing states to abolish slavery within their borders. He would meet with several Deep South politicians who were reluctant to do so, working through sleepless, drowsy nights trying to persuade them to pass the law. They agreed to pass if their was a sunset provision that allowed the law to no longer be in effect, Longstreet having a metaphorical gun to his head for the survival of the Confederate States of America. He agreed to the sunset provision being put into the law allowing the law to expire five years to the day that the law was passed, which would be July 23, 1891. Once the law was passed, multiple states began to emancipate their slaves in exchange for compensation for each slave freed. These multiple states would be in the Industrial South (Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina, and Ozark) No attempts would be made in the Agrian South, except Louisiana; they would pass an abolition law one month later. Sequoyah would also pass an abolition law. The number of free states would be 6 and slave states would be 8. Several Upper South politicians were angry accused the Deep South of sedition for adding a sunset provision into the law as they believed they were trying to collude with the Union to reannex them back into the North. Nevertheless, this would not become public though and the relations between the two sections of the South would stay friendly. Meanwhile in the Union, Morton had to deal with calls to end the war with the Confederacy, Morton would ignore the calls because he had a majority of War Republicans and Democrats who Morton had compromised with them to get them to the War side in the House and the Senate, the calls would lessen when the Union Army was winning the war. Morton would suffer a morale drop when he was informed that the Confederacy had retaken New Orleans and control of the Mississippi River, due to a recently drafted 175,000 freedmen into the Confederate Army. Tired of losing lives due to Morton's War as the Peace Republicans called it and the Confederates winning back New Orleans. The Peace Republicans would take back the majority in the House and Senate in the midterm elections of 1886. Morton was dismayed at the results of the election as he met with prominent Peace Republicans to convince them to continue the war, but they refused to budge and it was clear what was gonna happen the war would be ended once the new Congress would be sworn in. Morton would continue his war until then out of pettines. Longstreet reported warily smiled in relief at the news of Peace Republicans retaking their Congress, his first foreign policy crisis had been resolved. Though the Blues and Grays would fight out their bad blood on the battlefield costing more lives for both sides. However in a show of solidarity one Confederate soldier would fly a truce flag into a Union camp on Christmas Day and would offer one of the Union Geneals a peace pipe, the general realizing that the war would be likely over in a month agreed to do so, soon Union and Confederate soldiers would be laughing along with each other as they would joke with one another. This would be called the Christmas Truce. When Morton would eventually call for a ceasefire realizing that the Generals would not go along with the fighting anymore and not to hurt his political career anymore, but would not call for the war to end. The American soliders would continue to have cordial discussions and have a jovial time.
Union and Confederate veterans meeting up for the Anniversary of the Christmas Truce in 1913.
James Longstreet would be the 5th President of the Confederacy, Longstreet would later recall in his memoir. That Curry would tell him in meeting with him to be sworn in "I sincerely hope you lead us unscathed, through this turbulent affair with the North, because if we lose, I will be its last leader." By the time of the spring, the Union had broken through the defense of Dixie and the Union had taken New Orleans, yielding control of the Mississippi River to the Union. Longstreet needed to take of the Confederate Armys dwindling manpower as he turned to passing the State Abolition Act of 1886 allowing states to abolish slavery within their borders. He would meet with several Deep South politicians who were reluctant to do so, working through sleepless, drowsy nights trying to persuade them to pass the law. They agreed to pass if their was a sunset provision that allowed the law to no longer be in effect, Longstreet having a metaphorical gun to his head for the survival of the Confederate States of America. He agreed to the sunset provision being put into the law allowing the law to expire five years to the day that the law was passed, which would be July 23, 1891. Once the law was passed, multiple states began to emancipate their slaves in exchange for compensation for each slave freed. These multiple states would be in the Industrial South (Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina, and Ozark) No attempts would be made in the Agrian South, except Louisiana; they would pass an abolition law one month later. Sequoyah would also pass an abolition law. The number of free states would be 6 and slave states would be 8. Several Upper South politicians were angry accused the Deep South of sedition for adding a sunset provision into the law as they believed they were trying to collude with the Union to reannex them back into the North. Nevertheless, this would not become public though and the relations between the two sections of the South would stay friendly. Meanwhile in the Union, Morton had to deal with calls to end the war with the Confederacy, Morton would ignore the calls because he had a majority of War Republicans and Democrats who Morton had compromised with them to get them to the War side in the House and the Senate, the calls would lessen when the Union Army was winning the war. Morton would suffer a morale drop when he was informed that the Confederacy had retaken New Orleans and control of the Mississippi River, due to a recently drafted 175,000 freedmen into the Confederate Army. Tired of losing lives due to Morton's War as the Peace Republicans called it and the Confederates winning back New Orleans. The Peace Republicans would take back the majority in the House and Senate in the midterm elections of 1886. Morton was dismayed at the results of the election as he met with prominent Peace Republicans to convince them to continue the war, but they refused to budge and it was clear what was gonna happen the war would be ended once the new Congress would be sworn in. Morton would continue his war until then out of pettines. Longstreet reported warily smiled in relief at the news of Peace Republicans retaking their Congress, his first foreign policy crisis had been resolved. Though the Blues and Grays would fight out their bad blood on the battlefield costing more lives for both sides. However in a show of solidarity one Confederate soldier would fly a truce flag into a Union camp on Christmas Day and would offer one of the Union Geneals a peace pipe, the general realizing that the war would be likely over in a month agreed to do so, soon Union and Confederate soldiers would be laughing along with each other as they would joke with one another. This would be called the Christmas Truce. When Morton would eventually call for a ceasefire realizing that the Generals would not go along with the fighting anymore and not to hurt his political career anymore, but would not call for the war to end. The American soliders would continue to have cordial discussions and have a jovial time.
Union and Confederate veterans meeting up for the Anniversary of the Christmas Truce in 1913.
VII :1887: At Peace Again
The new Congress would be sworn in and their first business would be passing a resolution to end the Great American War or Morton's War as Confederate historians would call it. Morton seeing as the War Republicans were all but diminished and the Peace Republicans and Democrats holding a two to one advantage in both chambers of Congress agreed to the resolution. Both representatives would meet up and discuss peace terms. Since the Confederacy defending majority of their land. No territorial changes would occur, as the Confederacy didn't want to take Union land. But the Union demanded that the fees be removed for access to the Mississippi River. The Confederacy agreed to remove the fees after a year of the peace treaty's ratification. As their were still dealing with the Boll Weevil crisis. The Union accepted this and the treaty would be signed on March 6, ending the Great American War.
The Great American War
(April 28, 1885-March 6, 1887)
1 year, 11 months, 22 days
-No territorial changes.
-The Confederacy will lift the fees to the Mississippi River in one year of signing the treaty.
The Southern populace was enthusiastic and national pride was at an all time high. With this the populace demanded the Confederate National Flag be changed. The Confederate Congress didn't alter the flag's design, but amended instead. They added an emblem with a sun in the middle of the Southern Cross. The rays coming off the sun would change with the the number of states added, the stars in the Cross would be changed to twelve, representing the original 12 seceded, Confederate States. The change would be passed in July. The Union would also change its flag getting rid of 4 stripes representing the 4 Southern states in the and changing the multiple starred canton to just one star representing the Union as one nation. Both flag changes would symbolize the change in the two American countries relations. The Confederacy now being fully independent and the Union coming to terms that the South was no longer theirs.
The Union flag
The Confederate National Flag (this is the present day version)
A/N: I didn't make these flags, I asked others to make these on the Flag Thread. All credit and kudos goes to them. Thanks guys!
The new Congress would be sworn in and their first business would be passing a resolution to end the Great American War or Morton's War as Confederate historians would call it. Morton seeing as the War Republicans were all but diminished and the Peace Republicans and Democrats holding a two to one advantage in both chambers of Congress agreed to the resolution. Both representatives would meet up and discuss peace terms. Since the Confederacy defending majority of their land. No territorial changes would occur, as the Confederacy didn't want to take Union land. But the Union demanded that the fees be removed for access to the Mississippi River. The Confederacy agreed to remove the fees after a year of the peace treaty's ratification. As their were still dealing with the Boll Weevil crisis. The Union accepted this and the treaty would be signed on March 6, ending the Great American War.
The Great American War
(April 28, 1885-March 6, 1887)
1 year, 11 months, 22 days
-No territorial changes.
-The Confederacy will lift the fees to the Mississippi River in one year of signing the treaty.
The Southern populace was enthusiastic and national pride was at an all time high. With this the populace demanded the Confederate National Flag be changed. The Confederate Congress didn't alter the flag's design, but amended instead. They added an emblem with a sun in the middle of the Southern Cross. The rays coming off the sun would change with the the number of states added, the stars in the Cross would be changed to twelve, representing the original 12 seceded, Confederate States. The change would be passed in July. The Union would also change its flag getting rid of 4 stripes representing the 4 Southern states in the and changing the multiple starred canton to just one star representing the Union as one nation. Both flag changes would symbolize the change in the two American countries relations. The Confederacy now being fully independent and the Union coming to terms that the South was no longer theirs.
The Union flag
The Confederate National Flag (this is the present day version)
A/N: I didn't make these flags, I asked others to make these on the Flag Thread. All credit and kudos goes to them. Thanks guys!
Yeah that's not a realistic number at all for that time period. you really need to change that.
that is an interesting take on the Flags of the USA and CSA I don't think I've seen it taken before. Thumbs up.
Thank You! Yeah, I came up with designs. But I don't know how to flag make, so asked others to help me
Soldiers refusing to fight in wartime is one thing, generals refusing to fight is another. If a general refused to follow orders from the commander in chief of the United States during wartime, they would be summarily relieved of command, court martialed, and executed. No one in the US military is allowed to refuse a direct military order from the president unless it violates the constitution.
This is ASB. The Confederacy was founded on slavery and the belief of white superiority, abolition is an admission that the ideals their nation was founded upon were wrong and nullifies any argument for the South to remain independent. Any politician that even proposed abolition in the Confederacy would have been voted out in a landslide or forced to resign.
There is absolutely no way the South could ever get that many blacks to serve. Political support for arming slaves or freedmen was practically nill and was only proposed in the last months of the Civil War. But even if it was there, why would these former slaves fight for their enslavers when they could just take the guns and revolt? What motive would these slaves and former slaves have for not taking up arms against the South, Southern pride and States' Rights?
I agree with you with the other two things but not this one. I don’t think it would’ve been ASB for the upper south to start abolishing slavery by the 1880s. The CSA wasn’t exactly as much of a monolith that many people make it out to be. The differences in the articles of secession in the Deep South states like South Carolina and the Upper South like Virginia say a lot about the mentalities of these two regions. I can see an analog to the Federalists and the Democratic-Republicans shaping up with the Upper South wanting to have a cohesive southern identity and the Deep South firmly entrenched in the states rights camp. By the time Brazil abolishes slavery in 1888 (assuming it’s like OTL), I can see the more industrialized states like Kentucky, North Carolina, Ozark, Tennessee, and Virginia being slightly embarrassed about being the last country in the Western Hemisphere with slavery. In the cases of Kentucky, Ozark, and Tennessee, there were huge numbers of people that did not want to join the Confederacy and opposed slavery in the 1860s, even if they weren’t in the majority. Cotton and the planting class weren’t even that strong there anyway, as was the case with the rest of the Upper South.
A bit of hyperbole on my part, but it doesn't discount from the fact that abolition in the Confederacy borders on impossibility. Consider that even if some states decided to abolish slavery, the Confederate supreme court (controlled by slaveholders) would probably rule any such laws unconstitutional on the basis of unjust deprevation of property (slaves) by the governments of those states.
1. You're right, I'll fix it to where Morton just simply sees the writing on the wall and just calls for a ceasefire.
2. If the Confederacy survived and wanted to survive, it would have to end slavery at some point. I think as PGSBHurricane said, the Upper South would be more industrialized than the Deep South and would be embarrassed about it. I justified them abolishing slavery in another way as those states was fear of reannextion back into the Union. I also I'm planning on having these two regions come to conflict in the near future in my ATL over the issue of slavery. There's nothing stopping the states abolishing slavery.
3. I should've put this along in the TL as well, but a draft law was put into place to have more manpower in the war against the Union. As a prolonged war against the Union, they would need more manpower, That included more poor whites and recently freedmen coming from the states that abolished slavery.
I appreciate your opinion, Admiral Spaun. Input like yours helps make me fix any flaws and make this ATL more plausible.
Sorry for not catching the hyperbole. I just don't think the Upper South where (sans Virginia) the planting class wasn't that influential and where cotton wasn't king would allow the Deep South to dominate for years. But if I'm being honest, I don't think slavery would officially be abolished on a nationwide scale until sometime between the Congo Affair and the 1920s (when Indian indenturement and convict leasing in the US lasted until). There might've been pressure and positive PR with the Brussels Conference Act of 1890 and the International Agreement for the suppression of the White Slave Traffic in 1904, though.
I'm glad to see that you took my critiques seriously and I'm honestly impressed with how well you handle criticism. Writing a TL is extremely difficult and it's always hard to know if you're getting everything right.
Abolition can only happen on a nationwide scale in the Confederacy. Otherwise, no matter what the Upper South does, any legal challenges to abolition will always be upheld at the federal level and slavery will remain. The Confederacy was founded on the protection of slavery in all its territories after all.
I thought that slavery couldn't be abolished at the national level and only the states could do it. At least that's what I thought I saw while reading the Confederate Constitution.
I'm saying that the Confederate Supreme Court would declare state abolition unconstitutional under the guise of protecting property rights of slave owners within those states.
I guess it's me thinking that the mindset in the Upper South will change somewhat by 1900 and be a thorn in the side to the Deep South.