Disaster at Leuthen TL - Frederick the Great dies in battle
- Thread starter Direwolf22
- Start date
Shame, really. It'd be most beautiful land grab in history
Wouldn't it just? I thought about it, but the more I considered it I figured a major Polish military invasion so soon after the Great War (where they lost between 6-8% of their entire pre-war population) was unlikely. Besides with the new border, Finland, Ukraine and Livonia becoming independent and a divided Russia, the Poles were fairly satisfied.
I think You might just underestimate how incredible boon for Russia is access to Baltic (especially as long as Bosphorus straits are blocked for them)
I mean- Poland doesn't need to launch an invasion- Poland needs independent state, even loyal to Tzar, that cuts Russia from the sea and isolates it from rest of the world (Tzar Peter the Great called Ingria "Russian window on the world"). It'd be just- IMO- much to gain for a small price (because Russia is certainly in much worse condition to fight than Poland- although surely not much), especially in case of ganging against Russia with everyone else.
EDIT: Btw- If I may ask- what is Ukrainian and Livonian stance on Polish minority? Of course Poles on their territories aren't as prevalent as on annexed ones, even to the point of being really small minorities- but it's still unlikely that Polish government would just leave them to be Ruthenized/ Livonized (especially in client states), especially as Poles on these territories were mostly upper class.
I think You might just underestimate how incredible boon for Russia is access to Baltic (especially as long as Bosphorus straits are blocked for them)
It'd be just- IMO- much to gain for a small price (because Russia is certainly in much worse condition to fight than Poland- although surely not much), especially in case of ganging against Russia with everyone else.
Well yes the Russians are quite happy about keeping it. Though the Russian Baltic Fleet is (in 1920) poor. The Danes have the strongest fleet in the Baltic. With Prussia & Poland more than a match for the Russians (with much of the old navy siding with Tsarists).
In the end it may just have been a mistake by Warsaw not to do more. Nations make mistakes all the time. Hopefully this one won't come back to haunt them.
Population transfers are the name of the game for much of Eastern Europe. Poland basically calls the shots though and Berlin is fairly happy to leave it to them. Poles in Uk/Liv are encouraged to emigrate to Poland. Those that stay however are treated well. No need to upset Warsaw. And Polish has replaced Russian as the second language learnt in schools in those nations.
I've been reading this TL for years (since the beginning actually), and it's one of my all-time favourites (with LoRaG and AoM) ! Registered specifically to be able to vote for Dal this time.
And if you need a Belgian/Flemish/Walloon/French... character, here's my name: Romain Pecher (it's a french sounding name, but I'm flemish... yup, Belgium is complicated).
! Registered specifically to be able to vote for Dal this time.And if you need a Belgian/Flemish/Walloon/French... character, here's my name: Romain Pecher (it's a french sounding name, but I'm flemish... yup, Belgium is complicated).
I doubt that there would be many willing to migrate- Poles in Ukraine were mostly landowners (at least otl). Of course lower classes identifying themselves as Poles lived there as well. I'm asking this question mostly because landowners tend to cause problems if government wants to partition their lands (exactly what happened otl in Poland after WWI) and trying to abuse authority by Ukrainian government might antagonize Polish one. Not doing it would cause plenty of problems on its own.
That said- Russia might have done it decades earlier, but even under more democratic form of rule- they'd have to pay plenty for this land...
One more question- could You post (either now or in some next update) percentage numbers on ethnicity in this TL Poland (and for minorities treatment), please? I guess it'll be quite different, as Poland never disappeared completely, Poles from western lands moved east, Galicia was lost for short period of time and- most importantly- Poland got "partitioned" much later and for much shorter period of time than otl. Sure, that most likely won't make Poles dominating group around Smolensk, but would cause for totally different situation for Lithuanians and Belorussians- their country (Grand Duchy of Lithuania) never ceased to exist after all- it just shrunk considerably. And then grew up once more.
I read your timeline long before my inscription in this forum and well what a great story ! I have a question about the kingdom of flanders. Who is the king and why only the flanders and not also the Wallonia ?
Upcoming Update Schedule:
- Spain/Italy
- Northern Europe (Scandinavia & FRR)
- Under the Sickle (Collectivist América)
- The rest of the Americas
- Countdown to war in East Asia
Though I may change my mind
So a Northern Europe update first is possible
?I've been reading this TL for years (since the beginning actually), and it's one of my all-time favourites (with LoRaG and AoM)
And if you need a Belgian/Flemish/Walloon/French... character, here's my name: Romain Pecher (it's a french sounding name, but I'm flemish... yup, Belgium is complicated).
Thank you very much! glad you're enjoying it.
Well I haven't got a Belgium ITTL so that makes it easier. Clearly the lack of Belgium has not stopped you from reading so thats good
Good points definitely. I will yeah, I'll try and do as much of a breakdown as I can. The continued existence of an independent Polish state will, as you say, make a big difference to OTL populations.
It's the strongest in the Baltic. It has 6 of the latest generation of battlecruisers. In Europe only Britain and Portugal have more. Combined the Frances do as well. Italy has 5 but they aren't as good. Rhineland, Greece and Spain have a couple as do the Hapsburgs. In a straight up naval fight Denmark would beat Prussia/Poland. If P/P were joined by Sweden, Denmark still has the edge but its slight. In the unlikely event of a Russo-Prussian-Polish-Swedish alliance then Denmark would lose.
Thanks! Wallonia had been "Frenchifed" after so long under French rule. Consequently it was deemed an integral part of France and not lost after the GW. And the flemish have a Hapsburg king. Putting a Bourbon would have antagonised Collectivist France too much and the Haspburgs have previous claims to the area after all.
So a Northern Europe update first is possible
Well I've already started the Italy/Spain one so... I wouldn't bet on it
An alliance of Russia, Prussia and Sweden... God that must make the Austrians shake in fear. To bad the current sentiments in two of those nations (by which I mean Russia and Poland) would make such an alliance impossible. Is there any possibility that Prussia could ditch Poland in exchange for Russia? Or are the integration of the two made such a thing impossible.
Also, is it possible for a last-minute change of name?
I kinda think that my name is somewhat "Englishified" for him to be living in a Philippines that's been ruled be France for the last two centuries. How about Wilhelm Lowenbeck? A member of the Prussian Army?BTW I voted again... The Manthofens will continue their military adventures.
But A "black sheep" of the family would be nice too (Maybe a volunteer in the international brigades fighting for the Brit Collectivists
But A "black sheep" of the family would be nice too (Maybe a volunteer in the international brigades fighting for the Brit Collectivists
BTW I voted again... The Manthofens will continue their military adventures.
But A "black sheep" of the family would be nice too (Maybe a volunteer in the international brigades fighting for the Brit Collectivists
Thanks very much! Managing to hang on to a narrow lead at the moment..
Yeah I can do that..
Hope to have the update on Spitaly up tonight. Tomorrow night latest.
Wow! That's a huge milestone. Can't believe it. When I started this 4 years ago I never would have anticipated getting this far. Thank you to all of you who have followed me on this journey!
And as a reward an update:
The Triumph of the Left
Spain & Italy (1919-1924)
Spain was hit hard by the Great Crash. A scene of heavy fighting in the Great War, Spain had been a battleground as Allied forces (principally British, Spanish and Portuguese) forced out the Bourbons in Aragon and their French allies. Spain had suffered 300,000 casualties in the fighting, and in the post-war era had to not only repair the damage done to the country but oversee the integration of the former Kingdom of Aragon. The Aragonese under the Bourbon monarchs had been independent for about a century, The result of this was a fostering of a unique sense of national identity that Madrid was never quiet able to crush. The people of this region would remain more conservative and opposed the parties of the radical left even after the Collectivist government took power in Madrid. To recover from the war, Spain had been heavily reliant on Anglo-Portuguese financial support. This dried up immediately following the Crash in 1919 and plunged Spain into an era of uncertainty. By 1921 unemployment was over 12% and the centrist political parties were haemorrhaging support to left and right. Right-wing nationalists and Aragonese separatist parties each enjoyed a sizeable boost of support. It was the Collectivists however that were the greatest beneficiaries. Already boasting elected representation the Collectivists painted the crisis as an inevitable consequence of the global economic system and advocated new radical policies to avert the crisis. They were helped by the fact that the only country that offered any sort of aid in this period was France. The Collectivist regime had avoided the worst of the Crash (the benefit of being virtually outside the global economic system) and had been able to help Spain out somewhat. Regardless in the 1922 Spanish election the Collectivists won a majority of 61% and soon set to dealing with the crisis.
The Spanish Collectivists were (primarily) adherents to the Democratic Collectivist interpretation of the ideology. One of the three major Collectivist branches (the other two being Totalism and Monterrism), Democratic Collectivism was the most moderate of the three. It remained committed to a democratic process (though separatism was outlawed) and tended to favour the decentralisation of Monterrism over the all powerful state of the Totalist regime in Paris. Upon taking power the Collectivists immediately signed a full alliance with France. This drew criticism from Portugal (which broke its alliance with Spain as a result) and from the British loyalist regime (the Collectivists in Britain applauded the move). Seeking to tackle unemployment the government in Madrid launched ambitious public works programmes, military expansion and better access to education. It also gave the vote to all men and women over 20. These projects slowly, but surely, began to ease Spain back from the brink. A separatist rising in Barcelona was crushed in 1923. Further afield there were problems for Spain. Cuba, long part of Spain, finally tired of its submission to Madrid and had risen in revolution in 1921. The Cuban revolutionaries however were divided between right-wing and left-wing elements. Soon Cuba was embroiled in a three way conflict between loyalists, right-wing rebels and Collectivist rebels. The new Spanish government dispatched a fleet to the island in 1924 to re-assert Spanish authority. This led to a diplomatic crisis as América had been aiding the Collectivist rebels, eager to bring the island under its sphere. Spanish forces gradually re-asserted control over the east of island as the rebels were fractured, but were prevented from taking Havana. Américan naval forces soon sailed for the island. France, desperate to prevent its two Collectivist allies from fighting offered to mediate. Cuba was granted full political autonomy (independent in all but name but still under Spanish protection and technically subservient to Madrid). In exchange América was allowed to establish a naval base at Guantanamo Bay, as a base in the central Caribbean. After the crisis Madrid refocused its eyes closer to home as they continued their efforts to strengthen Spain and watch with interest the events in Italy.
Spanish forces in Cuba:
The creation of the Second Italian Republic and the success of the Collectivists in Italy was a lot less rosy than it had been in Spain. Italy had been a politically divided country even before the crash. Regionalism, radicalism and irredentism were rife in Italy, creating a wild and colourful political climate. An ally of Spain since 1909, Italy likewise was hit hard by the crash. Unlike in Spain however, in Italy all the extreme parties benefited. The Italian nationalists were dominated by the Aquilists. Aquilism comes from the Italian word Aquila or eagle. The Aquilists took this symbol of ancient Rome as their emblem and heralded Italy as the heir to the Roman Empire. Advocating irredentism, nationalism, centralization of power and corporatism the Aquilists wanted to take power and reclaim ‘rightful’ Italian lands (chiefly Venetia, Tunis and parts of southeastern France). They were supported by Prussia and Poland and were popular in parts of the northwest of Italy. On the other side were the Collectivists, backed by France and Spain and strong in the south and the islands. As unemployment pushed passed 15% in the early 1920s the centrist parties bled supporters to either side. Street fights and rioting between the left and right was rife. Sicily, the south, Tuscany and Rome (aka pre-Great War Italy) were largely controlled by the Collectivists. Lombardy, Piedmont and a few other areas were under the wings of the Aquilists. At the election of 1924 the Collectivists won enough support to become the largest party. The election was not a fair one with both sides intimidating voters, cheating and altogether not playing by the rules. Aquilists almost immediately began setting up a rival regime in Turin, Italy seemed to be heading for Civil War. France however had other ideas. French forces, who were suspiciously ready for the exercise, swept over the border into Italy. Crushing any right-wing opposition they found they joined with Italian forces and announced their recognition of the Collectivist government in Rome. Spain followed suit immediately. The Prussians protested angrily but they had not expected the move and it seemed too late to intervene now, but Berlin would not forget. Vienna was worried but wasn’t sure if the Collectivists or the vehemently anti-Hapsburg Aquilists were worse so did nothing. With French and Spanish aid, the Italian government exerted its control over the country (a control tentative at best in parts of the north). In August of 1924 the three countries (France, Spain and Italy) signed the Palma Pact on the island of Majorca in the western Mediterranean. A new political bloc had emerged in Europe and one eager to shake the continent's foundations.
Flag of the Second Republic of Italy
Exchanging the old red for Collectivist black and including the Collectivist symbol of a fist. The fist has the tails of a flame simulating Italy rising from the ashes of the economic and political crisis.
Exchanging the old red for Collectivist black and including the Collectivist symbol of a fist. The fist has the tails of a flame simulating Italy rising from the ashes of the economic and political crisis.
I am curious as to when/if the collectivists in Spain fall weather or not Aragon will make a bid for independence.
So, more domino blocks have fallen. But I really wanted the CSA (btw, was that intentional from the start?) to take Cuba. There's just something I love about Mexican (well, Américan in this case) Cuba.
I'm wondering whether this world's Collectivism will be as much a Latin/Romance thing as Communism 'was' a Slavic thing in OTL (I mean, even Sorbs were under a communist government).
(I should probably cut back on all the brackets...)
There's just something I love about Mexican (well, Américan in this case) Cuba.I'm wondering whether this world's Collectivism will be as much a Latin/Romance thing as Communism 'was' a Slavic thing in OTL (I mean, even Sorbs were under a communist government).
(I should probably cut back on all the brackets...)