DBWI: What if the United States had survived into the 21st Century?

[SunilTanna]

BTW, How did USSR won cold war?

Well until WW2 there was always a debate about whether decentralisation and competition (epitomised by the capitalist system), and the flexibility it offers, is a better or worse way of organising things than centralisation and planning (epitomised by the USSR's command economy).

The years since WW2, have provided an unequivocal answer: decentralisation leads to disorganisation and chaos, and competition results in wasteful use of resources, duplication of effort, and failed businesses. Centralised and planned systems always work better, and decentralised systems can not hope to compete.

This applies to economies (look how the USSR out grew and over took the Western capitalist bloc).

This applies to militaries (look how much stronger the USSR was, especially once it had integrated the new communist countries into a single combined communist state) than the multinational NATO alliance.

And this even applies to technology - Comnet (based around a single massive central mainframe built under Moscow, and remote terminals under central control) was always vastly more powerful and capable than the little known US "internet" which was based on idea of networking many more-or-less equal computers at multiple locations.

 

[Phalamus]

Well until WW2 there was always a debate about whether decentralisation and competition (epitomised by the capitalist system), and the flexibility it offers, is a better or worse way of organising things than centralisation and planning (epitomised by the USSR's command economy).

The years since WW2, have provided an unequivocal answer: decentralisation leads to disorganisation and chaos, and competition results in wasteful use of resources, duplication of effort, and failed businesses. Centralised and planned systems always work better, and decentralised systems can not hope to compete.

This applies to economies (look how the USSR out grew and over took the Western capitalist bloc).

This applies to militaries (look how much stronger the USSR was, especially once it had integrated the new communist countries into a single combined communist state) than the multinational NATO alliance.

And this even applies to technology - Comnet (based around a single massive central mainframe built under Moscow, and remote terminals under central control) was always vastly more powerful and capable than the little known US "internet" which was based on idea of networking many more-or-less equal computers at multiple locations.

Well, I wouldn't quite put it that way. It's not decentralisation that leads to chaos but lack of planning. In many ways, the curent Soviet system is decentralized, as planning is made mostly through workers councils, computational programs and constant polling of various demographics regarding their varied needs and wants. If the reformists hadn't gotten their way and planning had remained in the hands of just a small number of bureaucrats you can bet you labour vouchers that the cold war would have ended up very differently!

Also regarding comnet, I think you're vastly underestimating the role of the remote terminals, since they're what has kept the system together during the handful of times the Moscow mainframe malfunctioned.

 

[Phalamus]

Now, when it comes to the USA getting their shit together, I think it's needless to say that just political tweaks won't do it. You've got fix the economy first. History has proven time after time that capitalism simply cannot work in the long run. The American absolutely need to transition into something resembling the EF, at the very least.

 

[Phalamus]

And by the way, speaking of capitalists. Have you guys heard that Chile has launched another missile? This one flew all the way through Patagonia and into the Atlantic. Seems like "rocket boy" Renato Pinochet is going to have no trouble filling his grandfather's shoes.

 

[Whiteshore]

And by the way, speaking of capitalists. Have you guys heard that Chile has launched another missile? This one flew all the way through Patagonia and into the Atlantic. Seems like "rocket boy" Renato Pinochet is going to have no trouble filling his grandfather's shoes.

I'm surprised the European Federation is still supporting them but European President West (OOC: Xi means West in Chinese) is starting to take more seriously moves to stop Chile's nuclear program.

Now, when it comes to the USA getting their shit together, I think it's needless to say that just political tweaks won't do it. You've got fix the economy first. History has proven time after time that capitalism simply cannot work in the long run. The American absolutely need to transition into something resembling the EF, at the very least.

So, what do you think would be good PODs for EF-esque reforms to occur in the US and why?

 

[Phalamus]

I'm surprised the European Federation is still supporting them but European President West (OOC: Xi means West in Chinese) is starting to take more seriously moves to stop Chile's nuclear program.

Well, he better do it fast, since it has become painfully clear that we can't trust the current Soviet leadership to fix things for us. What this crisis needs is strong diplomatic leadership, not more of Zhirinovsky's vain threats of "Flames and Anger". Seriously, how someone as brash and incompetent as that managed to be elected premier of the most powerful nation in the world is beyond me.

(OOC: Does Zhirinovsky work as a Trump analog or is he too extreme?)

So, what do you think would be good PODs for EF-esque reforms to occur in the US and why?

As I think someone else already said in this thread, Truman not dying would be a start. Then, we'd need to work to keep the New Deal Coalition intact and running. This would avoid the enourmous sectarianism of the 50s and keep America united and stable under a social democratic leadership.

That said, it would be hard for the reforms to really go through in America. One of the main reasons why they worked in Europe was because the economic elites there had been weakened by the war and so they offered less resistance. This wasn't the case in the US, as American capitalists were actually strenghened by the war instead of damaged by it. Unlike their European counterparts, they were in position to resist even the most basic economic regulations and wealth-redistribution programs.

 

[Tales Weaver]

How are the situation in korea developing right now?

 

[LNSS]

By Lenin, Zhirinovsky is an incompetent fool, it's been less than a year that he became Premier and he has already eroded most of Soviet credibility and soft power. Now it's likely the remainder of the 21st will turn out a multipolar world, with the Europeans, Indians, and Latin Americans on the rise.

 

[Tales Weaver]

By Lenin, Zhirinovsky is an incompetent fool, it's been less than a year that he became Premier and he has already eroded most of Soviet credibility and soft power. Now it's likely the remainder of the 21st will turn out a multipolar world, with the Europeans, Indians, and Latin Americans on the rise.

And CSA is rapidly becoming powerful since Webb became General Secretary..[1]

---
[1] OOC: based on IOTL Russia and Putin

 

[Phalamus]

And CSA is rapidly becoming powerful since Webb became General Secretary..[1]

Yeah, but they're nothing but a shadow of their former self. They think their annexation of Tennessee made them look scary, but sooner or later they'll have to give in to international pressures or face economic downfall due to isolation.

 

[ryhs]

Tennessee

Yeah, effects of Comecon sanctions show in their latest economic downturn, but they still have nominal support of EF. How can they still prop this Webb guy is beyond me. He is a populist and kleptocrat, without even a proper party apparatus to control and moderate his premiership. Not to mention his little 'war' with the south.

Oh, come on, comrade! This statement is only a cover for state capitalism. In Western Europe, crises are still raging, and their "convergence" is limited to the nationalization of heavy desolation and huge progressive taxes. There even telephone lines are private, and you have to pay for them.

You have to pay for the small things like that, yeah, but with the amount of money you get from basic income it's not a problem. It's part of their famous "market with social responsibility". They just use 'money' and 'market' to study public opinion instead of soviet-style opinion polls and computer models. And with a constant growth for the past 30 years I can't blame them for sticking with their system.

 

[Deleted member 82792]

What would race relations be like?

 

[FBKampfer]

They'd probably start butting heads with China. There's no way they'd disarm when arms production accounts for like 40% of their economy.

On the other hand, Germany probably wouldn't have stepped up to fill the void. But on the other other hand, Germany is probably way less of a bastard as leader of the Western world than the USA would have been. Worst they've done is lean on Greece and Turkey to join EUROPAC and buy their old Leopard 2's when they switched to the Tiger.

But honestly, fuck it. I'm probably happier in the Pacific Republic than I would have been in the United States. I'm still Union, and it's looking like the CSA and Texas would have dragged us away from unionization. It was already on the decline before the split, and it's completely gone outside the Republic and the Northern Union.

 

[Tales Weaver]

Yeah, but they're nothing but a shadow of their former self. They think their annexation of Tennessee made them look scary, but sooner or later they'll have to give in to international pressures or face economic downfall due to isolation.

But still.. CSA is one of most powerful countries in the world... That 'Shadow' still has lot of nukes..

 

[HARRY]

It is one of those strange and ironic twists of history that one the main reasons the United States came together in the 18th century was because of the taxes levied by the British to pay to defend the then colonies but 200 years later the heavy taxes on the now states to cover defense spending helped break the country up.

 

[FBKampfer]

But still.. CSA is one of most powerful countries in the world... That 'Shadow' still has lot of nukes..

Hardly. Aside from the nukes and all of like two submarines, all of their shit is coming up on 30 years out of date, and that's just the stuff that was brand new in 93. Well minus their carrier, but that things systems are still only like 01 vintage at best.

They're got.... what, something like 50 functional M1's left, none of which have anything like our (PRA) A3 updates, another 200 or so M60's in various states of disrepair. I think they still had a handful of airworthy F-15's last I heard. But that's it.

Okay okay, they inherented Raytheon, so their missile tech is actually pretty decent. But just shooting them off damn near bankrupts them. Of course that's not surprising when their economy subsists entirely on oil from the gulf, cotton, coffee, bibles, and down home racism.

 

[Whiteshore]

So, what do you think of the Northeastern Federation (OOC: New England+New York, New Jersey, and Pennslyvania)? How much potential do they have as under Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, the Northeastern Federation has become the main rival to the CSA?

 

[FBKampfer]

Relatively little. They just lack the resources to make it easy, and the interest to do it the hard way. They'd rather trade than shoot (which is fine by me. I love me some Brooklyn Indi)

The Pacific Republic kinda filled those shoes. The Rockies keep the Eastern border safe against damn near anything, Texas doesn't have anything in the way of natural barriers that could stop our tanks from rolling through into Galveston, we've got one of the only molybdenum mines in North America, we've got plenty of steel, and aluminum, and gold and silicon, plenty of lumber, ship yards in San Francisco, Seattle, and San Diego, large civilian aircraft pouring out of Washington, relatively big population, and we got to keep Holywood after the divorce.

Actually, why the ever living christ didn't we bail sooner? We've had literally nothing bad come from it.


But back to your question, my bet is that the CSA goes for another bite at Missouri and Illinois. Nobody really gives much of a damn and it would let them open up another front against the rest of the NE's de facto bread basket if things ever came to a head.

 

[Whiteshore]

So, what do you think would have happened to Bernie Sanders (the President of the Northeastern Federation from 1992 to 2006) in a scenario where the US survived until the 21st century via adopting EF-style reforms?

 

[Tales Weaver]

So, what do you think is the European Federation's future going to be? Is it the superpower of tomorrow or is it just too decentralized?

It will be tommorrow's superpower. It is getting slowly centralized.