Darkness before Dawn - Purple Phoenix 1416

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The Turks will always be a thorn on the side of the Byzantines, that's just going to not change. The Balkans basically becomes the heartlands of Greece espicially as the early modern era rolls in.

Another Greco Persian war would depend on everything in between: basically the Turkic states, Armenians and Trebizond. It'd be fought mostly in the Caucasus methinks.

Ittl I hope we see two Armenian states form (one in the Caucasus the other in Cilicia) which would both be allies of Byzantium while trying to unify. Having the Assyrian Christians have their own state that stretches from Lebanon to Northern Iraq would be a treat to see. But that's centuries in the future.

But back to the present of the tl: I'd really enjoy seeing how the Ottomans lose their empire, and I'd like to see what states are re-established. I think in the Greek majority places there's a huge chance that they get controlled by the Turks, but some Greek states popping out from there would be interesting too.
I’m glad you found this TL interesting, the first part will indeed focus on the change of fortunes between ERE and Ottomans, I have the scenarios somewhat set, hopefully in an unexpected yet plausible way. I am however not sure whether to narrate the TL in a character-driven story telling or a more macro pictured and event-based description. I guess I will hold a vote on the issue later down the road.

as for the Armenians, I certainly would see a high possibility of them to gain independence at least in their traditional homelands Lake Van and such. The Ottomans had a fundamental influence on the Middle East culturally, politically and economically. There’s a lot of work I have to put in to think of a plausible Middle East in the aftermath of the first part TL
 
As for the Armenians, I certainly would see a high possibility of them to gain independence at least in their traditional homelands Lake Van and such. The Ottomans had a fundamental influence on the Middle East culturally, politically and economically. There’s a lot of work I have to put in to think of a plausible Middle East in the aftermath of the first part TL
I do agree with the sentiment that the Middle East will be unrecognisable at the end. The Arabs will be the main peoples in the middle East but a lot of other groups will have fates dissimilar to otl.
 
I do agree with the sentiment that the Middle East will be unrecognisable at the end. The Arabs will be the main peoples in the middle East but a lot of other groups will have fates dissimilar to otl.
Especially as the Mamluk Sultanate's fate will be very different without Selim II putting an end to their regime.
 
Someone will definitely take them down since the Mamlukes are really weak at that point. Who does it is the important question.
Yes Mamelukes with their disfunxtioning government and severe internal struggle is a house of cards most likely to fall either by external threat or internal divisions. Egypt would be too far away from the major powers to influence, this opens Syria and Levant to some serious meddling
 
If the Byzantines can get there at 1500-1600 and reform properly (considering the influence from Italy that's a big possibility with both army and navy) there's a huge chance they can get back most of the Balkans and Anatolia (they should be able to assimilate the Bulgars and Albanians) anchoring them at the Taurus mountains and retain the Pontus through the Kommenos dynasty (kingdom of Trebizond) since the pod is 1410s and after that no one powerful enough should be able to take Trebizond down since the Ottomans shatter. If they can ensure they properly assimilate the Bulgars and Albanians into a wider Roman identity they should be able to hold a lot more land which should allow them to secure those lands when nationalism rolls in.

PS: the Roman empire at the Balkans and the Roman empire at the Pontus basically is the Western Eastern Roman Empire and Eastern Eastern Roman Empire lol
The Byzantine could neither hold "most of the Balkans and Anatolia" nor "assimilate Bulgarians"even during their second medieval apogee,how could they ever achieve that as a rump state totally dependent on Catholic mercy and with a Turkish population already firmly established in Anatolia?
 
The Byzantine could neither hold "most of the Balkans and Anatolia" nor "assimilate Bulgarians"even during their second medieval apogee,how could they ever achieve that as a rump state totally dependent on Catholic mercy and with a Turkish population already firmly established in Anatolia?
These stipulations are founded on the ERE gaining otl Greece borders at 1500ish (which they will do) and properly reforming. If they don't they'll fail.
 
People here really tend of overestimate Byzantines,they had no chance to become a real great power again after mid 14th century. Of course they surviving with much of OTL modern Greek territory plus Constantinople would be also interesting and influential on world history,so I hope this doesn't turn into the "single -country focused wank" type of timeline.
 
People here really tend of overestimate Byzantines,they had no chance to become a real great power again after mid 14th century. Of course they surviving with much of OTL modern Greek territory plus Constantinople would be also interesting and influential on world history,so I hope this doesn't turn into the "single -country focused wank" type of timeline.
Wanking a country into absurd amounts of land grabs and technologically development into modern age within the span of one generation certainly falls out of the scope of this TL - I will try make the scenarios as historically plausible as possible. Though some few “lucky” moments and “golden finger” would occur
 
These stipulations are founded on the ERE gaining otl Greece borders at 1500ish (which they will do) and properly reforming. If they don't they'll fail.
A country with the otl Greece border plus Constantinople at 1500s is still in no position for conquering most of Anatolia and Balkans, in fact no candidate for being a Great Power,because it would still be far weaker than either Venice or Hungary and had a very limited demographic base to expand upon.
 
A country with the otl Greece border plus Constantinople at 1500s is still in no position for conquering most of Anatolia and Balkans, in fact no candidate for being a Great Power,because it would still be far weaker than either Venice or Hungary and had a very limited demographic base to expand upon.
Greece would basically be reforming in the late 1400s and get rid of Venetian patronage at an alt 1509 incident where the Venetians got wrecked. I don't think Hungary should be mentioned as they weren't really control the Balkans directly with good kings. So basically the guy who's the hegemon dies and the other guy who needs to be the competent (like very very good) to be able to hold this much. Maybe Croatia but Serbia's going to be a thing.
 
Greece would basically be reforming in the late 1400s and get rid of Venetian patronage at an alt 1509 incident where the Venetians got wrecked. I don't think Hungary should be mentioned as they weren't really control the Balkans directly with good kings. So basically the guy who's the hegemon dies and the other guy who needs to be the competent (like very very good) to be able to hold this much. Maybe Croatia but Serbia's going to be a thing.
Hungary was already in control of Croatia for hundreds of years,so they definitely had an interest in and huge influence on Balkans.
Especially for a 15th century Byzantine revival scenario,you almost certainly need Hungary to do the majority of "screwing Turks" job. So after the defeat of Ottomans,Hungary would have a even greater role in Balkans,with Serbia,Wallachia and Bulgaria as its satellite states.?
 
Hungary was already in control of Croatia for hundreds of years,so they definitely had an interest in and huge influence on Balkans.
Especially for a 15th century Byzantine revival scenario,you almost certainly need Hungary to do the majority of "screwing Turks" job. So after the defeat of Ottomans,Hungary would have a even greater role in Balkans,with Serbia,Wallachia and Bulgaria as its satellite states.?
Ottomans most likely will screw themselves over, and Hungary will take advantage during the collapse. Byzantium most likely will get France as an ally, which would help the Byzantines a lot. Luck and politics are quite significant.

PS: @elerosse can you threadmark your story posts?
 
Ottomans most likely will screw themselves over, and Hungary will take advantage during the collapse. Byzantium most likely will get France as an ally, which would help the Byzantines a lot. Luck and politics are quite significant.

PS: @elerosse can you threadmark your story posts?
Im more than happy to do that, I am however new to posting, so Im not sure how to threadmark unfortunately
 
Greece would basically be reforming in the late 1400s and get rid of Venetian patronage at an alt 1509 incident where the Venetians got wrecked. I don't think Hungary should be mentioned as they weren't really control the Balkans directly with good kings. So basically the guy who's the hegemon dies and the other guy who needs to be the competent (like very very good) to be able to hold this much. Maybe Croatia but Serbia's going to be a thing.
You press the three dots and 'Add Threadmark' pops up. You type in the Label and you're set I think.
 
Chapter 2
CHAPTER 2 – A Shadow of former Self



When the messenger from Leontares arrives at Constantinople and relays the letter into the hands of emperor Manuel II Palaiologos, he finds an emperor that has reigned for 20 years, a man renowned for his rhetoric, his charisma, his gregariousness and intelligence.



Only recently recovered from a bad cold, the now old aged Manuel II is visibly tired, yet his eyes are wise as ever. After reading the letter, he stands up from his chair, walks across the room towards a table where a giant map of the surrounding area is spread out. He looks at the position of Thessaloniki briefly, then focuses his eyesight north setting on the sanjak of Dobrudja, an area in northern Bulgaria, divided by the Danube River from the realms of voivodeships of Wallachia and Moldavia.



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Map of Balkans and Agean Coast, circa 1410


Manuel stands still for a moment, then proceeds to write a replying letter. Before long he hands the reply to the waiting messenger, telling him: “Place this letter into the hands of Demetrios, and remind him that he must fully control the movement of Mustafa and Junayd, they are to be well treated but kept secured from themselves, the Ottomans, or any potential third party that have interests other than ours. As for the matter of the Ottoman disturbance, I applaud him for his effort, and may he find comfort when I finalize a deal with my beloved son the Sultan, who shall be obedient in time like these.”



“As you wish my most benevolent Basileios.”



As the messenger leaves, Manuel sets his sight at the map again. He calls upon his eldest son Ioannes to come to his side. Ioannes has only recently been crowned as co-emperor, and has witnessed his father’s conversation with the messenger. He walks to his father's side, curious in the matter.



“Ioannes my son, this is Dobrudja, where sultan Mehmed is heading according to the report of Leontares.” Manuel points out the location on the map, and while his son is observing, he continues: “My agent to the north has recently send me reports from Mesembria, that a certain mystic, the former kazasker[1] to the dead prince Musa, Sheikh Bedreddin has gathered a large follower in Northern Bulgaria. It is rumored that he has gained support from the princes in Wallachia and Moldavia, many reports seeing weapons, armors, wheat, arrows being ferried across the river.”



“This man must be the headache that sultan Mehmed I facing. A decent amount of frontier beys of Ottomans still has favorable opinions of Musa, but without a son of Bayezid in his helm, I wonder how long this disturbance would last.”



“Wouldn’t it be to our benefit then, that we support sultan Mehmed to put down this disturbance, gain his favor and lift the siege in Thessaloniki? Especially since this Sheikh Bedreddin is the remnant of the despicable prince Musa who sieged our Constantinople not long ago.” Ioannes offers his insight to the matter.



“Son, the politics goes beyond personal feelings. Our support means little to Mehmed, how many men can we gather? How much are we willing to sacrifice for the Ottomans? Mehmed knows well our limitations. We have nothing to give to the rebels that may change the outcome, yet risking angering Mehmed to our detriment.”



Ioannes, however have a different take on the situation. Young and bold, eager for honor and glory, he replies: “That may be, but if we do not support Mehmed, as Mustafa and Junayd are currently in our hands... if, say we transported them to Anatolia while Mehmed is busy in Bulgaria, they would surely stir up a lot of support, threatening the position of Mehmed dearly. Then Mehmed will know well our potentials, and grand us further concessions.”



Manuel patiently explains his thoughts to his son: “We are still too weak to face the Ottomans in open conflict, Mustafa and Junayd is the only major cards we hold. If we let them loose, we will lose control of the situation. It could become dangerously risky to us.”



“The fact that we are too weak on our own require us to utilize the internal division of the Ottomans to keep them busy and occupied, so that when the Latin crusaders finally arrives, we may deal the final blow to the scourge, and reclaim our empire.”



Manuel, perhaps worried by the bellicose tone of Ioannes, in turn changes his voice to a harshly tone: “If we release Mustafa and Junayd today, with Mehmed still having the allegiance of the beys, Mustafa would only be crushed by the beys in Anatolia eager to prove their loyalty to the sultan. Therefore, I have ordered Leontares to keep them in Thessaloniki. They will remain in our hands until some major crisis develops in Ottoman court, whenever that may happen, and we must remain friendly to Mehmed for the moment so to safeguard our precious gains following the Treaty of Gallipoli.”



Knowing Manuel’s positions, Ioannes avoids a confrontation with his father, and changes the topic instead: “How much are the Ottomans offering us to keep Mustafa and Junayd away from them?”



“Initially they want an immediate release into their custody, yet Leontares has managed to secure a payment of 1.000.000 akces in exchange for us to release them.”



“And what is your plan, father?”



Manuel smiles briefly: “We will promise Mehmed to never release Mustafa and Junayd, yet they must stay in our hands. Fortunately, the Venetians have destroyed Ottoman naval capabilities, and Bedreddin in rebellion has strengthened our position. I will require an annual payment from the sultan. I would assume 400.000 akces yearly would be something Mehmed is willing to accept, giving his predicament now.”



“Also, your brother Andronikos has mentioned around 800 men, women and children been taken as slaves by the Ottomans at Thessaloniki, these actions also require compensations.”



Seemingly convinced his son, Manuel places his right hand on the shoulder of Ioannes: “My son, our path, the path of emperor of Romans is a long and arduous path, it requires above all patience. Rash decisions may only lead us into oblivion.”



“I agree with your decision father, I will be more patient.” Ioannes nods.



"Leave the matter of negotiation with Mehmed to me, focus your effort on the coming Morea campaign. We mustn't waste the opportunity that Ottoman distraction has given us, you must fully support Theodoros in his effort to consolidate Peloponnese, swipe aside the remnants of Latin usurpers. We must use every opportunity to strengthen ourselves, while avoid the intervention of Ottomans and Venetians."



Ioannes shows a smile on his face. He is eager to prove his worth, and a military campaign in the near future in Peleponnese surely would cement his rightful position as co-emperor of the Roman Empire.





[1] A kazasker or kadıasker (Ottoman Turkish: قاضی عسكر, ḳāḍī'asker, "military judge") was a chief judge in the Ottoman Empire, so named originally because his jurisdiction extended to the cases of soldiers, who were later tried only by their own officers.
 
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So I guess when the sultan fails at stopping the rebellion we see the ERE letting the political prisoners free? Fun segment nontheless.
 
So I guess when the sultan fails at stopping the rebellion we see the ERE letting the political prisoners free? Fun segment nontheless.
That was the thinking of Ioannes in ITL, but it really depends on how much damage Bedreddin can cause to the Ottomans. The man iotl fought for 4 years, so hes certainly no cake walk which Manuel initially assumes. Ive only slightly added the reference to the upcoming Morea campaign, which in otl happened in 1417 where Ioannes personally led an imperial army to assist Theodoros despot of Morea and practically annexed Achae save some few towns like Patras.
 
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That was the thinking of Ioannes in ITL, but it really depends on how much damage Bedreddin can cause to the Ottomans. The man iotl fought for 4 years, so hes certainly no cake walk which Manuel initially assumes. Ive only slightly added the reference to the upcoming Morea campaign, which in otl happened in 1417 where Ioannes personally led an imperial army to assist Theodoros despot of Morea and practically annexed Achae save some few towns like Patras.
I'd think they should consolidate the bits that's not controlled by the ottomans while the Ottomans lose Anatolia (and the lands of Konstantin Dragas). That should make the base for a good recovery. Plus the bits of otl Greece except Thrace. Any bit of Thrace.
 
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