Code talking

[Myrtonos]

Navajo code was used in a battle against the Japanese in WWII and again in part of the Vietnam war. It was declassified in 1968. But what if it had remained classified at least until the end of the Vietnam war?

What if the Argentines had used an equivalent in the Falklands war?

 

[Catsmate]

Is there an equivalent "native" language in Argentina with speakers available? Plus with more modern radio systems, encryption, burst transmission and frequency hopping would it have even been relevant?

 

[Myrtonos]

Yes, all South American countries have their indigenous languages. What makes code talking relevant is that Argentina can use a code based on an obscure language, and the United Kingdom has no obscure languages available. Even if Argentina doesn't, there are definitely others in South America that could have been used had another joined the Falklands war.

 

[Myrtonos]

It turns out that there are 14 living indigenous languages in Argentina, most seem to be obscure.

 

[Osakadave]

Yes, all South American countries have their indigenous languages.

The question is are there enough speakers serving in the military at the time for it to work. I'm very skeptical.

What makes code talking relevant is that Argentina can use a code based on an obscure language, and the United Kingdom has no obscure languages available.

Irish, Welsh, Cornish, Manx... - and that's before you get to the really obscure ones like Jerriais and Guernesiais.

Even if Argentina doesn't, there are definitely others in South America that could have been used had another joined the Falklands war.

The same skepticism applies. In both cases, the obscure languages are spoken by indigenous peoples. There's a huge amount of discrimination towards indigenous people. I have serious doubts that you'd find sufficient numbers of speakers serving in the military, particularly at levels where they'd be trusted with something like this.

 

[Myrtonos]

The question is are there enough speakers serving in the military at the time for it to work. I'm very skeptical.

Remember that the Navajo code talkers were indigenous people and they were recruited into the millitary by someone called Phillip Johnston.

Irish, Welsh, Cornish, Manx... - and that's before you get to the really obscure ones like Jerriais and Guernesiais.

Jerrais and Guernesiais are very similar to French and all three have a lot of simularities with Spanish. Besides these are all Latin based and thus have a lot of simularities with the Latin side of English.
Also, Welsh is spoken in a part of Argentina called Pategonia. And there are also a lot of simularities between Welsh and Cornish, both also have simularities with Irish and Manx.

The same skepticism applies. In both cases, the obscure languages are spoken by indigenous peoples. There's a huge amount of discrimination towards indigenous people. I have serious doubts that you'd find sufficient numbers of speakers serving in the military, particularly at levels where they'd be trusted with something like this.

Navajo is also spoken by indingenous people. Again, those code talkers were indigenous people sollicted by Phillip. And they did their job without error.

During wartime, Navajo was still almost unknown outside the Navajo land. Also, there is no common basis of familiarity between Navajo and any more widely known language.

 

[Osakadave]

Yes, I'm well aware that the Dine are indigenous. (Your condescending tone was rather nasty and completely unnecessary, BTW.)

You seem to have missed the point completely. While there were clearly sufficient numbers of Dine in trusted postions, I have serious doubts that the situation could be replicated in the Argentinian military.

 

[Larm]

Irish, Welsh, Cornish, Manx... - and that's before you get to the really obscure ones like Jerriais and Guernesiais

a fair amount of Argentines are of Irish descent, theres also the sizeable Welsh minority that was previously mentioned and in in agreement that jerrias and guernesais would be too close to other romance languages to really be indecipherable

Another part of what made Navajo so hard to decode was that there weren't really any official dictionaries around the language outside of the USA (and within the USA it was quite hard to acquire) whereas such things existed for the Celtic languages

 

[Osakadave]

a fair amount of Argentines are of Irish descent, theres also the sizeable Welsh minority that was previously mentioned and in in agreement that jerrias and guernesais would be too close to other romance languages to really be indecipherable

Another part of what made Navajo so hard to decode was that there weren't really any official dictionaries around the language outside of the USA (and within the USA it was quite hard to acquire) whereas such things existed for the Celtic languages

Note that I was simply correcting the misinformation that the UK has no obscure languages, not suggesting that any of them were usuable for code talking.

 

[Myrtonos]

Welsh and other Celtic languages are hardly obscure languages:
*These languages have long been written. Official dictionaries around the languages have also likely been around for centuries, probably all over the world.
*There are plenty of people of Celtic descent in many ex-colonies outside Europe. Some even still speak Celtic languages, as in Patagonia, and Gaelic speaking parts of Nova Scotia, Canada.
*There are also a lot of simularities between these languages and a great deal of other Western languages. For example, the Welsh word for 'cat' is cath. It sounds like the English word but with a th-sound where the English word has a t-sound. Incidentally, the Navajo word for cat, moasi, was one of the Navajo code words for the letter Charlie. Use the Welsh word for 'cat' like that and its meaning would be all to obvious.

What makes a language obscure, apart from not being widely spoken or understood outside the homeland of its speakers, is a lack of a common basis of familiarity with any more widely known language, like English, German, Russian, French, Spanish, Japanese, or even any Celtic language.
The nearest thing to a truly obscure language anywhere in Europe is the Basque language. But even this language has been written for a long time and there are Basque speaking minorities scarrered around ex-colonies of European countries. I'm not sure if any truley obscure language even exists in Asia or North Africa either. All are either widely known well beyond the home territory of native speakers or are not so well known but with a lot of simularities with such widely known languages.

 

[Larm]

I'm not sure if any truley obscure language even exists in Asia or North Africa either. All are either widely known well beyond the home territory of native speakers or are not so well known but with a lot of simularities with such widely known languages.

Berber maybe?

 

[Larm]

That's a language group but I'm sure that aone of the Berber languages is obscure enough to be used for code by perhaps the french

 

[Just Leo]

Chocktaw was the code language of Americans in WWI. Post-war, Japanese and German scholars took an interest in learning Chocktaw. Damn scholars might take an interest in any language. Beware the scholar.

 

[Karelian]

I'm not sure if any truly obscure language even exists in Asia or North Africa either. All are either widely known well beyond the home territory of native speakers or are not so well known but with a lot of simularities with such widely known languages.

Smaller Sapmi languages would qualify.

 

[Myrtonos]

That's a language group but I'm sure that aone of the Berber languages is obscure enough to be used for code by perhaps the french

Do you mean those languages in North Africa? Aren't they related to Semitic languages?

 

[Nicola]

Yes, all South American countries have their indigenous languages. What makes code talking relevant is that Argentina can use a code based on an obscure language, and the United Kingdom has no obscure languages available. Even if Argentina doesn't, there are definitely others in South America that could have been used had another joined the Falklands war.

scots gaelic ... if it;s anywhere other than Argentina Welsh ... as there is a welsh speasking community in Arg ( sheep farmers and ranchers mainly)

 

[Major Major]

During the first Burma campaign Bill Slim gave orders to his subordinate generals en clair over the radio.

All three had been officers in Gurkha regiments, where speaking their language was mandatory. Gurkhali was not in the linguistic curriculum of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere.

There were plenty of Gurkhali-speaking officers, serving and retired, even Gurkha officers (i.e. Gurkhas), available.