Capitals of the Union and Confederacy

What would be the fate of the capital of the Confederate and Union capitols be if the Confederates won the Civil War? Would the Confederacy follow the Union's example of establishing a new capital that isn't in any state such as Washington D.C. was the case for the Union, would it stay in Richmond? Or would it be moved to another city somewhere close to the center?

Also, what would be the fate of the Union's capital? Would Washington D.C. be abandoned since it'd now be on the border? Would the US move the capital to an already existing city like Philadelphia and just seize the land from the said state, or would it be kept in the state?
 
Probably keep it in DC. Turtledove aside, the CSA is going to be a crumbling third rate power. It won't be invading the North anytime soon. Odds are, states will start falling apart and re-joining the USA.
 
Although I’ve seen people say Philadelphia would possibly be the new capital of the USA, personally, there’s been so much work and architecture in Washington DC like the Capitol Building, the White House, the incomplete Washington Monument, and how DC become a symbol of America Democracy, I just can’t see the USA abandoning it for Philadelphia. Most likely, they’ll just build large forts around it for protection.
 
Probably keep it in DC. Turtledove aside, the CSA is going to be a crumbling third rate power. It won't be invading the North anytime soon. Odds are, states will start falling apart and re-joining the USA.
If Richmond leaves, the CSA will probably move its capital back to Montgomery. The USA won't have to worry about moving, especially considering how heavily fortified D.C. became during the war.
 
The Confederacy would most likely keep Richmond as their capital, I can't see how they would get enough money to build their own version of D.C., as for the Union, I can't see them abandoning the heavily fortified Washington D.C. anytime soon, unless the Confederates burn it to the ground during the war and the Union would rather start over in Philadelphia.
 
Probably keep it in DC. Turtledove aside, the CSA is going to be a crumbling third rate power. It won't be invading the North anytime soon. Odds are, states will start falling apart and re-joining the USA.
Why would they want to rejoin the USA? Especially knowing that, if we take Turtledowe as a base, the USA very quickly degenerates into a hyper-nationalist police state built around hatred of "Traitor States". Which would make them think that horrible treatment awaits them if they ever try to join the USA again ...
 
Why would they want to rejoin the USA? Especially knowing that, if we take Turtledowe as a base, the USA very quickly degenerates into a hyper-nationalist police state built around hatred of "Traitor States". Which would make them think that horrible treatment awaits them if they ever try to join the USA again ...
I am saying Turtledove is probably not realistic. The CSA is going to be a failed state very quickly.
 
I am saying Turtledove is probably not realistic. The CSA is going to be a failed state very quickly.
True, but that does not clarify to me why they would want to rejoin the country against which they waged a war for independence. Probably a crumbling CSA population would be quite reluctant to rejoin another federation. Especially one who has every reason to hate them.
 
True, but that does not clarify to me why they would want to rejoin the country against which they waged a war for independence. Probably a crumbling CSA population would be quite reluctant to rejoin another federation. Especially one who has every reason to hate them.
Hmm, some of this is just my 'head canon' but I don't view relations between the USA and CSA as being very negative, honestly. Trade will be huge and the CSA zero threat to the United States. There will be land arguments over the west probably, but Northern claims will win out for the most part. Northeren industries will treat the South as a captive market and source for primary goods. I could easily see places like Tennesse and such trying to 'get out' of a crumbling CSA. Texas will probably leave but they will most likely do their own thing.
 
Hmm, some of this is just my 'head canon' but I don't view relations between the USA and CSA as being very negative, honestly. Trade will be huge and the CSA zero threat to the United States. There will be land arguments over the west probably, but Northern claims will win out for the most part. Northeren industries will treat the South as a captive market and source for primary goods. I could easily see places like Tennesse and such trying to 'get out' of a crumbling CSA. Texas will probably leave but they will most likely do their own thing.
I admit that it also seemed very silly to me the part of the USA becoming a bot obsessed with destroying CSA and making all its politics focus on that objective. But neither do I believe in the other version, which is "CSA and USA join forces against the rest of the world and reunite after World War II because separately they cannot stand up to the USSR" (I saw that in a story of this type) .

I think the relationship would probably be somewhere between being best friends and hating each other to death. And that CSA would certainly try to look for foreign allies (just in case, and another thing is that they get them).

I can certainly see that as soon as CSA starts to go bad, the States will try to break away. It is the part that they immediately meet with the US that I doubt. I think they would at least try on their own. Another possibility is that there is a civil war between CSA and the secessionist states, with the US selling arms to both sides to enrich itself.
 
I admit that it also seemed very silly to me the part of the USA becoming a bot obsessed with destroying CSA and making all its politics focus on that objective. But neither do I believe in the other version, which is "CSA and USA join forces against the rest of the world and reunite after World War II because separately they cannot stand up to the USSR" (I saw that in a story of this type) .

I think the relationship would probably be somewhere between being best friends and hating each other to death. And that CSA would certainly try to look for foreign allies (just in case, and another thing is that they get them).

I can certainly see that as soon as CSA starts to go bad, the States will try to break away. It is the part that they immediately meet with the US that I doubt. I think they would at least try on their own. Another possibility is that there is a civil war between CSA and the secessionist states, with the US selling arms to both sides to enrich itself.
I keep having this TL idea of Huey Long being made a Gorbachev-like leader of a crumbling CSA.
 
I find it funny that the assumption is so strong(on this forum)that the CSA would be a failed state. I wonder how much that has to do with the demographics of this board. I see this over and over and over on every single civil war timeline/discussion.
I mean it just seems that the very possibility of a powerful CSA invokes absolute disdain. Once again I wonder how much of that is rooted in fact(as if nations cannot change directions for the better)or the whole “end of history” mentality that is so common.
 
I find it funny that the assumption is so strong(on this forum)that the CSA would be a failed state. I wonder how much that has to do with the demographics of this board. I see this over and over and over on every single civil war timeline/discussion.
I mean it just seems that the very possibility of a powerful CSA invokes absolute disdain. Once again I wonder how much of that is rooted in fact(as if nations cannot change directions for the better)or the whole “end of history” mentality that is so common.
The CSA has lots of the seeds of failed state-ness that have claimed many other nations. Is it 100%? No. Is it likely? In my mind, yes.

Frankly, I think we see more CSA doing great TLs here then the reverse.
 
I find it funny that the assumption is so strong(on this forum)that the CSA would be a failed state.
IMO failed state is a really strong word. Something closer to say the Porfiriato would be far more likely in my view.

the USA very quickly degenerates into a hyper-nationalist police state built around hatred of "Traitor States".
Um...the TL-191 US is not a hyper-nationalist police state. Especially not the police state part of that.
 
Um...the TL-191 US is not a hyper-nationalist police state. Especially not the police state part of that.
The "Ideology of Remembrance", the brutal military occupation of Canada and the savage repression of Canadians, the politics heavily focused around the total destruction and re-annexation, by military force, of the Confederate States, the introduction of the Prussian-style conscription, the entering into alliance with Germany just because the Confederate states had allied themselves with Germany's rivals, and the paranoia that there might be Confederate sympathizers everywhere ... says rather the opposite.
 
the brutal military occupation of Canada and the savage repression of Canadians
Which many inside the US opposed, and with no repercussions for them, since the US Constitution remained in place in non-occupied areas. Which is hardly something that would be true in any sort of police state.
the politics heavily focused around the total destruction and re-annexation, by military force, of the Confederate States
Which only occurred after the CSA went full Nazi, and waged a war of genocidal annihilation that didn't end until the United States had overrun virtually the entire country. Before that Roosevelt was perfectly content just beating the CSA and regaining some strategic territory.

the introduction of the Prussian-style conscription,
Literally everyone had conscription. The US was notable for not having it OTL. Unless you also are going to call the OTL French Third Republic a hyper-nationalist police state. Which would be equally ridiculous.

the entering into alliance with Germany just because the Confederate states had allied themselves with Germany's rivals,
Those Confederate allies had waged war on the United States in the 1880s, and had threatened war twenty years earlier. Allying with their enemy wasn't some kind of insanely aggressive move. It was outright self-defense since both Britain and France had shown that given half a chance they would wage war on the United States for no reason. The fact that the British government was actually so stupid that they joined the CSA in the Second Mexican War, and in the process drove the Americans straight into the arms of the Germans (and since Turtledove had literally everything play out the same also meant they were driving the Americans to ally with the RUSSIANS, ie Britain's primary foreign threat) should have seen everyone involved fired for complete and utter incompetence.

and the paranoia that there might be Confederate sympathizers everywhere
Like uh...when?
 
What would be the fate of the capital of the Confederate and Union capitols be if the Confederates won the Civil War? Would the Confederacy follow the Union's example of establishing a new capital that isn't in any state such as Washington D.C. was the case for the Union, would it stay in Richmond? Or would it be moved to another city somewhere close to the center?

Also, what would be the fate of the Union's capital? Would Washington D.C. be abandoned since it'd now be on the border? Would the US move the capital to an already existing city like Philadelphia and just seize the land from the said state, or would it be kept in the state?
If The South Had Won The Civil War, a 1961 book by MacKinlay Kantor, had an influence on Turtledove.

In this book, the war ends with General Lee capturing Washington, D.C. and this Southern victory causes Maryland to join the Confederacy with the one exception of its (original) Cecil County (at the tip-top of Chesapeake Bay, bordering Pennsylania and Delaware) which remains in the United States.

Delaware’s northernmost county, New Castle, also remains in the United States while the other two Delaware counties of Kent and Sussex become part of Maryland and the Confederacy.

The South changes the name of the “District of Columbia” to the “District of Dixie” and Washington D.D. becomes the new Confederate capital.

The United States finally decides on Columbus, Ohio as its new capital and renames the city “Columbia”.
 
Which many inside the US opposed, and with no repercussions for them, since the US Constitution remained in place in non-occupied areas. Which is hardly something that would be true in any sort of police state.
I should re-reading abou this part for reply about this.

Which only occurred after the CSA went full Nazi, and waged a war of genocidal annihilation that didn't end until the United States had overrun virtually the entire country. Before that Roosevelt was perfectly content just beating the CSA and regaining some strategic territory.
The ideology of Remembrance dates back to 1880 with the Second Mexican War and its main point was hatred for the Confederate States and their revanchist and re-annexationist anxieties. To pretend that the United States never wanted to re-annex CSA until World War II is false. The only reason they didn't do it after the Great War was just because Turtledowe needed CSAs to continue to exist in WWII for someone to play Nazis.

Literally everyone had conscription. The US was notable for not having it OTL. Unless you also are going to call the OTL French Third Republic a hyper-nationalist police state. Which would be equally ridiculous.
"Others are doing it too" is not a valid argument. Especially since the French Third Republic was not dedicated to adopting authoritarian and militaristic policies like those implemented by the United States.

Those Confederate allies had waged war on the United States in the 1880s, and had threatened war twenty years earlier. Allying with their enemy wasn't some kind of insanely aggressive move. It was outright self-defense since both Britain and France had shown that given half a chance they would wage war on the United States for no reason. The fact that the British government was actually so stupid that they joined the CSA in the Second Mexican War, and in the process drove the Americans straight into the arms of the Germans (and since Turtledove had literally everything play out the same also meant they were driving the Americans to ally with the RUSSIANS, ie Britain's primary foreign threat) should have seen everyone involved fired for complete and utter incompetence.
If you talk about the Second Mexican War of 1880, that war was started BY THE UNITED STATES, because President Blaine was horribly offended that CSA had access to the Pacific. The only reason the Confederates won was because Blaine declared war but forgot to prepare the army to fight it. (Which, in a minimally realistic story, would have led to Blaine's immediate removal of power from him, but not here.) And the only reason the Confederates did not impose worse conditions was because Germany jumped to the rescue of the United States.

In fact, the reason why France and Great Britain intervened was not "for no reason", but rather that CSA asked them for help because the US was making saber rattling that they would wage war on them unless they gave up buying Chihuahua and Sonora. This help was not free either, but they demanded that CSA freeze their slaves. (Let's forget for now how unrealistic this is, let's just stick with the fact that Britain demanded concessions in exchange for their help, rather than jumping for free.) Likewise, in principle the idea was that, when faced with that Triple Alliance, the United States would desist from the war. But they did not.

But you're making it sound like CSA declared war for no reason and Britain and France intervened because ... because they hated America? And yes, I share that the entire diplomatic team should have been fired for morons.
 
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