British Weapons Enter Service A Year Earlier

[Driftless]

You mean earlier than all the addicts sets requred for the battle of the atlanric being designed and substansially produced before the war? Down to small sets for coal powered Trawlers? Indeed the only real addictive development mode during the war was sets with accuracy sufficient for ahead thrown weapons. The RN was quite prepared for the use of asdic in WW2. Training could be improved but those requiring training were mostly not in the RN untill the war started.

My understanding of the situation Sept 1939
1. They had the fundamental technology available, but not not deployed in useful quantity
2. The existing technology was rudimentary enough where it might take triangulation from a 2-3 hunters to get a decent location, and that would go sideways once a depth charge run started. Practical experience led to incremental improvement.

You would need an unspecified hand-waving "nudge" for practical testing to advance the technology pre-war, and also to see that the Germans were gearing up for another round of u-boat warfare. It's the fore-sight part that would have been harder to account for, I believe.

 

[hipper]

As I said the numbers were there there were enough spare asdic sets to equip all the ships the Royal Navy wanted to equip down to coal fired anti submarine trawlers. The problem was the lack of ships.

My understanding of the situation Sept 1939
1. They had the fundamental technology available, but not not deployed in useful quantity
2. The existing technology was rudimentary enough where it might take triangulation from a 2-3 hunters to get a decent location, and that would go sideways once a depth charge run started. Practical experience led to incremental improvement.

You would need an unspecified hand-waving "nudge" for practical testing to advance the technology pre-war, and also to see that the Germans were gearing up for another round of u-boat warfare. It's the fore-sight part that would have been harder to account for, I believe.

The technology did not need to be advanced the same asdic sets were used from 1939 to 45 with the only advance being the introduction of depth finding asdic in 42 -43 which was a nice to have not a requirement.

The sets were able in sufficent Quantity to equip all the existing navy and ships called from reserve, trawlers I have read no account of RN ships waiting for Asdic before completing However this happened in several other classes of equipment.

One ship could make an attack by itself however the asdic would be blind when the attacking vessel passed over the target submarines which is why ahead throwing weapons were handy.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...e&q=portland anti submarine documents&f=false

A handy source if you are interested...

 

[Oldbill]

As I said the numbers were there there were enough spare asdic sets to equip all the ships the Royal Navy wanted to equip down to coal fired anti submarine trawlers. The problem was the lack of ships.


The technology did not need to be advanced the same asdic sets were used from 1939 to 45 with the only advance being the introduction of depth finding asdic in 42 -43 which was a nice to have not a requirement.

The sets were able in sufficent Quantity to equip all the existing navy and ships called from reserve, trawlers I have read no account of RN ships waiting for Asdic before completing However this happened in several other classes of equipment.

One ship could make an attack by itself however the asdic would be blind when the attacking vessel passed over the target submarines which is why ahead throwing weapons were handy.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jdOPAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=portland+anti+submarine+documents&source=bl&ots=Y0Qeaf0S-Y&sig=KebV9TbcDc7zrLZePF8X-i03c8E&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiHoqbD84HUAhUjKcAKHdcVB3MQ6AEILDAD#v=onepage&q=portland anti submarine documents&f=false

A handy source if you are interested...

Another reason to love coming to this site, I will, inevitably, learn something or find another book to be read here, at least once a month if not weekly.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Actually just mass order the flowers in 1938 so you have 100 in ervice in 1939 it butterflies away many bad things - mostly the first happy time.

So what is it that prompts the Government to realise that war is all but inevitable in 1938 instead of after the takeover of Czechoslovakia? Up until then Chamberlain still thought it could be avoided.

 

[Just Leo]

Getting Napier bought out by English Electric a year earlier might give the Sabre a decent rep before poor production quality turned people against it, would a more reliable engine earlier mean that it would get a decent super charger before the war ends? Any thoughts Leo?

With a better rep we might see late version of the Sabre being used on prop airliners due to the high power to cubic capacity of the Later Sabre engines, they still get superceded by jets obviously.

With EE involved earlier will we see the MB3 getting a production run, maybe a Sabre Beaufighter or Sabre versions of the Mosquito? No benifit for the Beaufighter apart from the ablity to carry more ordnance I'd imagine, might make the Mossie a bit of a handful mind. Sabre powered Hornet anyone?

I'm not a fan of the Sabre engine, so this will be all negative. Napier received all the priority of a favored program because of the Vulture's failure, because nobody seemed to be backing Centaurus, or noticing the possibilities. Sabre was a hyper-engine capable of producing more power than Centaurus, on less capacity, but not on less weight or installed drag. Sabre stole development potential from Bristol, and Bristol didn't have enough engineering potential to spare. Taurus production was stripped from Bristol because it was found to have application on Sabre. Production techniques found by Bristol were employed, and metallurgy employed which was developed through Bristol's efforts through cooperation with a couple steel companies. In the end, the Centaurus powered the last Tempest, the best one. The Centaurus was a much smoother, quieter engine with less carbon monoxide, and without exhaust pipe glare to distract a pilot. Centaurus started in cold weather too. It was also a worthy airliner engine, in the end.

The Sabre wouldn't have fit a Beau or Mossie, except as a heavily re-engineered, larger version, such as the eventual Centaurus/Brigand. The effect of better supercharging would have driven the Sabre to destruction, since it was already stressed to the tits. It also didn't need extra weight and complexity.

 

[Just Leo]

Something that hasn't received much babble yet are the weapons used in the anti-U-boat war. Hedgehogs were good at throwing, but required contact, and throwers followed, utilizing DCs. Torpex and Minex explosives just happened to appear as increased effectiveness was noticed. Until the development of proper aerial devices, more aircraft were destroyed by their own weapons than U-boats, or at least I think so. Proper aerial depth charges certainly improved the kill rate per attack, but their appearance took more than a single year.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Until the development of proper aerial devices, more aircraft were destroyed by their own weapons than U-boats, or at least I think so.

It shouldn't be too much of a problem to solve, provided proper testing of the existing weapons is done to show up their uselessness. You can't solve a problem until you know it exists. The same goes for the RAF's near useless General Purpose Bombs as well.

 

[PSL]

As I said before - in 1937 the admiralty set a plan in motion since war was expected by 1940 or treasury would go bankrupt. Nothing could be changed from 1937-1940. New ordered could be designed ; planned and ordered before 1940, but nothing could be laid down before this.

 

[Astrodragon]

Something that hasn't received much babble yet are the weapons used in the anti-U-boat war. Hedgehogs were good at throwing, but required contact, and throwers followed, utilizing DCs. Torpex and Minex explosives just happened to appear as increased effectiveness was noticed. Until the development of proper aerial devices, more aircraft were destroyed by their own weapons than U-boats, or at least I think so. Proper aerial depth charges certainly improved the kill rate per attack, but their appearance took more than a single year.

I didn't address them because its tricky to find a sensible reason for advancing them a year.

The RAF couldn't care less about its anti-u-boat bombs.
Torpex and Minol were developed, iirc, after analysis of German results showed the pre-war theory was wrong.
Hedgehog could have been developed earlier, but a year wont have it ready for 1939, when its really wanted.

All these issues really need a POD of some sort around 1937, someone (or some comittee) having a flash of insight and deciding Something Needs to be Done.

Actually the biggest single improvement in the first few yearsof A/S would be to set up a dedicated training school for A/S, and train escort groups rather than assigning ships at random to a convoy. Until you do something like this, you wont get a huge improvement from just the weapons.

 

[Astrodragon]

As I said before - in 1937 the admiralty set a plan in motion since war was expected by 1940 or treasury would go bankrupt. Nothing could be changed from 1937-1940. New ordered could be designed ; planned and ordered before 1940, but nothing could be laid down before this.

You're suggestion that the Admiralty building plan is set is stone is, I'm afraid, wrong.
They modified the plans continually.

What WAS fixed was the availability of certain key resources - principally Armour plate, guns/turrets and FC kit. These limited how many ships of a certain type could be built in any one year, and all required long term investment to improve supply, it was all specialised stuff you couldn't easily contract out.

There were a few large slips not in full use, so an (unarmoured) Aircraft carrieror two could have been slipped into the program. However in OTL the RAF didn't supply even the existing requirement of planes, so more carriers were seen as wasteful at the time, there wouldn't have been any planes for them.

 

[dave_r_gilbert]

I'm not sure, but I think I read somewhere about a project in the late 20's to early 30's on ahead throwing ASW weapons.
The blindspot for ASDIC was known from the first war, so a weapon that can be used while maintaining contact wouldn't be too much of a stretch.
edit: Just found a reference in Wikipedia (yes, I know) that the need had been recognised in the first war and research started.
An ASW school wouldn't be a push either, as Aber says in the next post the Perisher course needs opponents.

Realising the need for escort groups might need experience of convoy work, so difficult to justify pre-war.

MAC ships, escort carriers, and improved airborne ASW all need extracting the Fleet Air Arm from the RAF in the early 30's if not earlier.
I think someone wrote a popular thread on that a while ago, mixed up with food discussions.

 

[Aber]

Neither would an ASW school.

An Anti-Perisher course?

 

[Astrodragon]

I'm not sure, but I think I read somewhere about a project in the late 20's to early 30's on ahead throwing ASW weapons.
The blindspot for ASDIC was known from the first war, so a weapon that can be used while maintaining contact wouldn't be too much of a stretch.
edit: Just found a reference in Wikipedia (yes, I know) that the need had been recognised in the first war and research started.
An ASW school wouldn't be a push either, as Aber says in the next post the Perisher course needs opponents.

Realising the need for escort groups might need experience of convoy work, so difficult to justify pre-war.

MAC ships, escort carriers, and improved airborne ASW all need extracting the Fleet Air Arm from the RAF in the early 30's if not earlier.
I think someone wrote a popular thread on that a while ago, mixed up with food discussions.

There were a lot of forward-throwing experiments done between the wars. The problem was there was a mistake in the operational context - they were trying for a single-round kill. Problem was, the sonar and weapons system simply wasn't accurate or deadly enough, and so they abandoned them.
Ironically the RN did deploy a one-shot-kill A/S weapon in WW2, the one ton charge fired out of a torpedo tube...

It wasn't until someone worked out that a shotgun charge of small weapons (hedgehog) or a 6 pack that killed a significant volume (which there was a fair chance the sub would be in), Squid, that forward firing systems became viable.

The problem with pre-war escort groups wasnt that they didn't have them, but that they thought they could just assign individual ships to an individual convoys escort groups. Having a dedicate group that you assign as a group is far more effective.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

For what its worth another of my spreadsheets. Note the following:

1. Source: The Annual Abstract of Statistics.
2. The figures come from 3 different editions. The third edition calculates the National Debt in a different way from the earlier editions, which is why 31st March 1940 is about £400 million less than 31st March 1939.
3. Financial years run from 1st April to 31st March.
4. Amounts are in millions of Pounds.
5. Defence Spending for 1937-38 and 1938-39 is inclusive of issues from the Consolidated Fund under the Defence Loans Act, 1937 viz: £64.9 million in 1937-38; and £128.1 million in 1938-39.
6. Planned defence spending for 1939-40 was £506.1 million of which £217.9 million was to come from revenue and £288.2 million would be issued from the Consolidated Fund under the Defence Loans Act. However, that is the figure from the original Service Estimate and do not include any Supplementary Estimates that might have been approved by Parliament between April 1939 and September 1939.
7. Sorry for it being lopsided. It would be much simpler if this website allowed the direct import of spreadsheets instead of having to print them out and scan them.

 

[Catsmate]

Now we know what you do for a living: time-travelling bus driver!

Hmmm...

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

This is an attempt to estimate the financial effects of starting rearmament in the 1933-34 financial year instead of 1934-35. Therefore:

1. The Total Revenue, Total Expenditure and Total Defence Expenditure for 1934-35 to 1944-45 have been moved forward by one year.
2. The Total Revenue and Total Defence Expenditure in 1944-45 and 1945-46 are the same as OTL.
3. The Total National Debt Service from 1934-35 to 1946-47 have been moved forward by one year.
4. The Total Expenditure for 1934-35 to 1944-45 have been moved forward by on year.
5. The Total Expenditure for 1944-45 is OTL plus £44.9 million due to the Total National Debt Service being £465.0 million instead of £420.1 million.
6. The Total Expenditure for 1945-46 is OTL plus £33.8 million due to the Total National Debt Service being £498.8 million instead of £465.0 million.
7. The National Debt at 31st March 1935 to 31st March 1947 have been moved forward by one year. That is:
   1. 31st March 1934 ITTL equals 31st March 1935 IOTL and so on until:
   2. 31st March 1946 ITTL equals 31st March 1947 IOTL.
8. In the 11 financial years from 1933-34 to 1943-44 the:
   1. Total Defence Expenditure was £18,907.7 million IOTL and £23,924.9 million ITTL which is an increase of £5,017.1 million.
   2. Total National Debt Service was increased by £196.1 million.
   3. Total Expenditure was increased by £5,401.3 million.
   4. Total Revenue was increased by £2,545.3 million.
9. The National Debt at 31st March 1944 was £18,562.2 million IOTL and £21,365.9 million ITTL an increase of £2,803.7 million or 15.1%.
10. The National Debt at 31st March 1946 was £23,636.6 million IOTL and £25,630.7 million ITTL an increase of £1,994.1 million or 8.4%.

 

[Catsmate]

I always thought the Whale has Wings was about aircraft carriers. It seems to be the most dangerous weapon deployed against the Axis is the Clapham omnibus!

Please, it's the 22 to Clapham Common.

 

[riggerrob]

Which is obviously dependant on some serious money being invested in R&D. Something Power Jets didn't have, so advancing the timetable appears to be a non starter.

...................................................................................

Again, I repeat my P.O.D. where a visionary financier recognizes the potential of Whittle's patents earlier.
This visionary financier funds sufficient machinists, fitters, test cells, administrators and materials to allow Whittle to concentrate on perfecting his jet engine.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Another spreadsheet. This is from the official history of British War Production from the copy in my local reference library. The original document combines light bombers and fighters in one category for 1944. In my transcription they are counted as fighters.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Not on topic, but I found these in notes that I made from Blitz Over Britain by Alfred Price when looking up something else and thought they would be of interest.

Force required to Inflict 13% losses (shot down or damaged beyond repair) on a force of 1,200 bombers

1. Destroying 155 Enemy Aircraft required 2 interceptions per kill = 310 interceptions.
2. 3 sorties were required per kill as only 2 out of 3 sorties would result in a kill = 465 sorties.
3. To mount this effort required 39 squadrons each with an Initial Equipment of 16 aircraft (39 x 16 = 624) of which 75% would be serviceable (39 x 12 = 468).
4. Allowing for one quarter of the squadrons to be out of the line increased the requirement to 52 squadrons.
5. However, such an attack would take 3 hours and some of the fighters could be sent up twice. Therefore the requirement was set at 46 squadrons as fighters would be needed for the rest of the country. This was the realistic minimum.
6. 39 squadrons actually existed in September 1939 including 4 with No. 22 (Army Co-operation) Group.