British Weapons Enter Service A Year Earlier

[NOMISYRRUC]

The POD is an early wank for no good reason except to justify a wank. The same politicians and bigwigs are in charge, but being a wank, the Lerwick, Botha, Roc, etc will not be built early or in larger quantities even though the same persons are in charge. Wank on!

It depends. At the worst the duds come into service a year earlier but they are replaced by something better a year earlier as well.

Originally the idea was that things like having Rolls Royce started work on the Merlin a year earlier so that it was ready for production a year earlier and all the improved versions came into service a year earlier. Meanwhile the Air Ministry brought its specifications forward by a year from about 1930. Therefore, for example, the specification that produced the Hawker Hurricane was brought forward by a year, the prototype flew a year earlier and the aircraft entered RAF service about a year earlier. However, instead of bringing the first production contract of OTL which was for 600 Hurricanes forward from June 1936 to June 1935 the Air Ministry ordered 112 Hawker Hurricanes from Hawker instead of the Fury Mk II (some Hart derivatives were subcontracted to General Aircraft in place of 89 Hurricanes all other things being equal) and the first of 746 Hurricanes built by Gloster instead of the 746 Gladiators that it built for the RAF, FAA and export. Previously Gloster had built 228 Gladiators in place of 228 Gauntlets.

Then I decided to go the whole hog and start British rearmament a year earlier. That requires the British Government and just as important the British electorate to react to the threat of Nazi Germany with greater vigour.

Therefore in the case of the RAF and its supporting industries they had the same number of personnel, the same organisation, the same number of aircraft and the same types of aircraft at 31st March 1933 ITTL as 31st March 1934 IOTL. The expansion schemes were brought forward a year, so Scheme A in 1933, Scheme C in 1934, Scheme F in 1935 and finally Schemes L and M in 1937. The shadow factory scheme was set up in 1935 instead of 1936 and the RAFVR was set up in 1935 instead of 1936 too. The concrete runways were built a year earlier. Development of radar began a year earlier. The RAF of TTL at the time of the Munich Crisis would have been the same as the OTL RAF in September 1939. The RAF of September 1939 ITTL was not exactly the same as September 1940 IOTL but Expansion Scheme F had been completed and an extra year's work had been done on Schemes L and M.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

As I read it, originally, it was weapons earlier, not better weapons. It was implied that they would be better, since they were later, but not stated. That became quite stretched and flexible if it excluded Mosquito, or Hedgehog, since several advances arrived beyond the limit. This would place the Hurricane into the realm of fighter-bomber, with its one year's additional capabilities and performance, but it doesn't necessarily create that knowledge of these characteristics within the Ministry. We have earlier weapons, not smarter people. Would it not still be desired and husbanded within its original Defence of GB role? The establishment of a viable tactical doctrine does not fall within a one year span where it would make any difference. It also means that more Defiants will be serving in their original role, and their subsequent withdrawal will have greater impact.

Excellent points. They make me feel so ashamed for starting this thread that I'll accidentally shoot myself while cleaning my revolver. I'm only half joking.

 

[Some Bloke]

Originally it was better weapons a year earlier, rather than more weapons a year earlier. Therefore it was a question of building the same number of tanks in 1940 but instead of building Tank Y they built Tank Z. Although some of the better weapons will be more expensive than the weapons they were built instead of the increase is not large enough to drive the UK to bankruptcy a year earlier IMHO. My personal opinion is that bringing forward the increases in production a year ahead of OTL won't automatically bring the UK to bankruptcy either. It might have a significantly larger National Debt afterwards though.

Not necessarily if we go down the cancel one, concentrate on another route.

 

[pdf27]

There do seem to be a lot of alternative interpretations flying around. The one I found most interesting was what different decisions could have been made using OTL technology and budgets which would have worked out better, even though it isn't really in the spirit of the thread title.

The Griffon/Vulture engine sequence is one such - both date to about the same point and have roughly similar displacement (37 .vs. 42 litres), but in OTL the decision was made to give priority to the Vulture. Swapping priority for the two isn't inconceivable, which since the Griffon had a much less painful development cycle would have given the UK a very powerful engine in service rather earlier than OTL, for about the same total spend as OTL.

 

[Just Leo]

Excellent points. They make me feel so ashamed for starting this thread that I'll accidentally shoot myself while cleaning my revolver. I'm only half joking.

Try some Jimmy Carr. He's very good with jokes. He's also very good with hecklers.

 

[Astrodragon]

OK, what can be done realistically to bring things into like a year earlier (so, without making Leo spillhis tea...

Have the R-R Chief Engineer with the ramp-head mania meet a bus in 1933.Without the two years(!) wasted trying to get the ramp head to work (it never idd...), a reliable working Merlin isachieved sooner (probably not two years, as parallel problems would likely have been worked on, but a year seems, if anything, pessimistic). With the Merlin passing its flight checks early (and the power level ramping up a year early as well), without the people trying to fix the ramp-head issues, RR could have more free engineers to work on the Griffon. The Vulture will still have itsproblems, but with an earlier Griffon, it would be easier to say 'lets just concentrate on the Griffon', the power ranges were similar.
So in 1940 we have a Spitfire more like the MkV than the MkII.

If RR is proceeding faster with the Merlin, there could be more pressure on Bristol for more powerful engines (OK, this may also need a few busses redeployed to Bristol as well...). The Perseus 100 could have been suggested as an alternative to seeing the Merlin take all the contracts. And/Or the Hercules could have been speeded up (it wasn't exactly rushed in OTL). A Reaper powered by P100's, or a Beaufighter with decent Hercules would have been a massive imptrovements as night fighters in 40/41.

Guns. There was an unconscionable delay in OTL getting the Hispano license and redesign sorted out, this one is easier to butterfly away.

With Merlins coming on stream earlier, there wouldbe more pressure to get Hurricanes and Spits built to put them in. IIRC, there was actually some delays in the Hurricane caused by the slow Merlin development. (If necessary have Nuffield meet a bus at Castle Bromwich

Radar. This is an easy one to speed up. German serious work started in 1933, not till 35 in Britain. Have someone note the strat of a German program, and ask about the issues. Watson watt starts a program a year earlier. There was also a delay of around 4 months in moving the radar research facilities around. 1941 radar in 1940 would mean a useful AIR in the BoB, and a usable ASV in 1940. More U-boat losses.

Ships. Ah, the Battleships. There are actually a couple of ways of speeding things up that dont require magic. Have the KGV design conmplete with triple turrets. The shortage of draughtsmen is known, so have someone suggest modernising and reusing the NelRod design. This isnt bad, although there are some (known) problems to fix. Have the problems addressed, and have some produced as a turret capable of taking 15" or 16" guns. Then we cheat - start producing two sets as 'replacements' for the NelRods, but instead use them on the KGV and just fix the existing NelRod designs. The change to 10x14" cost 6-8 months in design time, and with the turrets completing earlier it now makes sense to put extra men on the ships to speed them up.Getting at lest the KGV and PoW before war slows them down in now possible.

 

[wietze]

I believe the British first saw the Hazemayer fire control system when an incomplete Dutch cruiser escaped from Rotterdam in 1940. If by chance they obtained the plans or a working version in 1939, would this have made a significant difference in RN gunnery, especially in the anti-aircraft role?

this one can be much earlier without problems
from the 40mm bofors wiki:

The first order for the "real" L/60 was made by the Dutch Navy, who ordered five twin-gun mounts for the cruiser De Ruyter in August 1934. These guns were stabilized using the Hazemeyer mount, in which one set of layers aimed the gun, while a second manually stabilized the platform the gun sat on. All five mounts were operated by one fire control system.

so the hazemeyer mount was already around in '34

 

[pdf27]

Ships. Ah, the Battleships. There are actually a couple of ways of speeding things up that dont require magic. Have the KGV design conmplete with triple turrets. The shortage of draughtsmen is known, so have someone suggest modernising and reusing the NelRod design. This isnt bad, although there are some (known) problems to fix. Have the problems addressed, and have some produced as a turret capable of taking 15" or 16" guns. Then we cheat - start producing two sets as 'replacements' for the NelRods, but instead use them on the KGV and just fix the existing NelRod designs. The change to 10x14" cost 6-8 months in design time, and with the turrets completing earlier it now makes sense to put extra men on the ships to speed them up.Getting at lest the KGV and PoW before war slows them down in now possible.

Now we know what you do for a living: time-travelling bus driver!

More seriously, NavWeaps et al say that the 3 x 3 x 15" design was the preferred option for the KGVs but got stopped by the various naval treaties - how would you get around this?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

More seriously, NavWeaps et al say that the 3 x 3 x 15" design was the preferred option for the KGVs but got stopped by the various naval treaties - how would you get around this?

Have the Government hold out for a 15" Gun maximum when negotiating. From what I understand it was the Navy's preferred choice.

 

[Astrodragon]

Now we know what you do for a living: time-travelling bus driver!

More seriously, NavWeaps et al say that the 3 x 3 x 15" design was the preferred option for the KGVs but got stopped by the various naval treaties - how would you get around this?

Fairly easily, since the 14" limit was suggested by the British.
Have them go for 15" instead, I doubt if the USA or France would have any objections. Indeed, since other countries like Italy were working on 15" ships, its likely such agreement would be easier.
However, nothing to stop you copying a turret that can take a 16" gun and saying its for 14", then putting a bigger gun in later (yes, this is inefficient...)

 

[jsb]

Have the Government hold out for a 15" Gun maximum when negotiating. From what I understand it was the Navy's preferred choice.

Never going to happen with USN/IJN not ever having a 15" gun... so its 16" limit or 14" IMO.

 

[tigercat]

Flower class corvette process starts a year earlier . The RN buy the SS Southern Pride and use her as a trials ship which means flower class recievexdesign improvements earlier I.e longer forecastle.

 

[Just Leo]

OK, what can be done realistically to bring things into like a year earlier (so, without making Leo spillhis tea...

Have the R-R Chief Engineer with the ramp-head mania meet a bus in 1933.Without the two years(!) wasted trying to get the ramp head to work (it never idd...), a reliable working Merlin isachieved sooner (probably not two years, as parallel problems would likely have been worked on, but a year seems, if anything, pessimistic). With the Merlin passing its flight checks early (and the power level ramping up a year early as well), without the people trying to fix the ramp-head issues, RR could have more free engineers to work on the Griffon. The Vulture will still have itsproblems, but with an earlier Griffon, it would be easier to say 'lets just concentrate on the Griffon', the power ranges were similar.
So in 1940 we have a Spitfire more like the MkV than the MkII.

If RR is proceeding faster with the Merlin, there could be more pressure on Bristol for more powerful engines (OK, this may also need a few busses redeployed to Bristol as well...). The Perseus 100 could have been suggested as an alternative to seeing the Merlin take all the contracts. And/Or the Hercules could have been speeded up (it wasn't exactly rushed in OTL). A Reaper powered by P100's, or a Beaufighter with decent Hercules would have been a massive imptrovements as night fighters in 40/41.

I'm taking coffee IV, so there's no danger of spillage. RL's a bitch.
The bus solution to Elliot at R-R is satisfactory, if brutal. They won't learn about using dowel pins to prevent crankcase creep if Vulture is cancelled, but I'm willing to accept that for an early Griffon, making a Spit XII enter the BoB in numbers.
Problems at Bristol require considerable carnage, with the entire board being nailed by Christine, devil-dog bus from hell. It was easier to have Cosmos purchased by Beardmore with a real management and a more future-minded board. The Perseus 100 wasn't the answer to anyone's dreams, but I don't have the time to explain. Production and metallurgical problems were solved, a year earlier as it turns out, and Napier is told to sod off if they can't fix their own problems. An 18-cyl. Taurus, which I've named the Thesaurus, becomes the solution to your Reaper, if it comes to pass. Problems remain to be solved, but when accomplished, it will be an engine worth further development, unlike Taurus. The Bristol problem was that the board didn't want to spend money by expanding the engineering department. Roy Fedden was fired because he wanted things the board didn't want, but which they needed to accomplish our tasks.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Never going to happen with USN/IJN not ever having a 15" gun... so its 16" limit or 14" IMO.

In which case the limit is set at 16" but the Navy gets it's preferred guns anyway, or in a variation of otl it's 15" with the escalator clause that the US and Japan exercise anyway. The last treaty was barely worth the paper it was written on.

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

OK, what can be done realistically to bring things into like a year earlier (so, without making Leo spillhis tea...

Have the R-R Chief Engineer with the ramp-head mania meet a bus in 1933.Without the two years(!) wasted trying to get the ramp head to work (it never idd...), a reliable working Merlin isachieved sooner (probably not two years, as parallel problems would likely have been worked on, but a year seems, if anything, pessimistic). With the Merlin passing its flight checks early (and the power level ramping up a year early as well), without the people trying to fix the ramp-head issues, RR could have more free engineers to work on the Griffon. The Vulture will still have itsproblems, but with an earlier Griffon, it would be easier to say 'lets just concentrate on the Griffon', the power ranges were similar.
So in 1940 we have a Spitfire more like the MkV than the MkII.

If RR is proceeding faster with the Merlin, there could be more pressure on Bristol for more powerful engines (OK, this may also need a few busses redeployed to Bristol as well...). The Perseus 100 could have been suggested as an alternative to seeing the Merlin take all the contracts. And/Or the Hercules could have been speeded up (it wasn't exactly rushed in OTL). A Reaper powered by P100's, or a Beaufighter with decent Hercules would have been a massive imptrovements as night fighters in 40/41.

Guns. There was an unconscionable delay in OTL getting the Hispano license and redesign sorted out, this one is easier to butterfly away.

With Merlins coming on stream earlier, there wouldbe more pressure to get Hurricanes and Spits built to put them in. IIRC, there was actually some delays in the Hurricane caused by the slow Merlin development. (If necessary have Nuffield meet a bus at Castle Bromwich

Radar. This is an easy one to speed up. German serious work started in 1933, not till 35 in Britain. Have someone note the strat of a German program, and ask about the issues. Watson watt starts a program a year earlier. There was also a delay of around 4 months in moving the radar research facilities around. 1941 radar in 1940 would mean a useful AIR in the BoB, and a usable ASV in 1940. More U-boat losses.

Ships. Ah, the Battleships. There are actually a couple of ways of speeding things up that dont require magic. Have the KGV design conmplete with triple turrets. The shortage of draughtsmen is known, so have someone suggest modernising and reusing the NelRod design. This isnt bad, although there are some (known) problems to fix. Have the problems addressed, and have some produced as a turret capable of taking 15" or 16" guns. Then we cheat - start producing two sets as 'replacements' for the NelRods, but instead use them on the KGV and just fix the existing NelRod designs. The change to 10x14" cost 6-8 months in design time, and with the turrets completing earlier it now makes sense to put extra men on the ships to speed them up.Getting at lest the KGV and PoW before war slows them down in now possible.

I always thought the Whale has Wings was about aircraft carriers. It seems to be the most dangerous weapon deployed against the Axis is the Clapham omnibus!

this one can be much earlier without problems
from the 40mm bofors wiki:
so the hazemeyer mount was already around in '34

True but the RN didn't deploy it AFAIK until after the outbreak of war.

 

[PSL]

we have gone over this with the German's; you can't just Wank something into existence with out paying a price.

So what is the price?

From what I've read RN building plans were set in stone in 1937 and could not be tinkered with until wartime....even then changes in industrial output have to be started years ahead. Ships take a year or two to plan/design/budget & order. The following year they could be laid down , followed by launch in the following year with commission dependant on supplies of tech and trained personnel after that, which could take another year. Four to five years from plan to commission.

If line of ships is already in the pipeline their design can be tinkered with after the fact, but with attendant delays which would have to be accounted for.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

You may have rushed a system into service before it's ready, or before those who have to use it have been trained to do so effectively?
Money and resources spent developing new weapons more quickly means that older but still useful weapons are not being built in sufficient quantity?

 

[brazen]

Getting Napier bought out by English Electric a year earlier might give the Sabre a decent rep before poor production quality turned people against it, would a more reliable engine earlier mean that it would get a decent super charger before the war ends? Any thoughts Leo?

With a better rep we might see late version of the Sabre being used on prop airliners due to the high power to cubic capacity of the Later Sabre engines, they still get superceded by jets obviously.

With EE involved earlier will we see the MB3 getting a production run, maybe a Sabre Beaufighter or Sabre versions of the Mosquito? No benifit for the Beaufighter apart from the ablity to carry more ordnance I'd imagine, might make the Mossie a bit of a handful mind. Sabre powered Hornet anyone?

 

[hipper]

More extensive use of ASDIC at an earlier date, with practical operational training. I don't know what change of conditions would cause that earlier development

You mean earlier than all the addicts sets requred for the battle of the atlanric being designed and substansially produced before the war? Down to small sets for coal powered Trawlers? Indeed the only real addictive development mode during the war was sets with accuracy sufficient for ahead thrown weapons. The RN was quite prepared for the use of asdic in WW2. Training could be improved but those requiring training were mostly not in the RN untill the war started.

 

[hipper]

Flower class corvette process starts a year earlier . The RN buy the SS Southern Pride and use her as a trials ship which means flower class recievexdesign improvements earlier I.e longer forecastle.

Actually just mass order the flowers in 1938 so you have 100 in ervice in 1939 it butterflies away many bad things - mostly the first happy time.