Blue Skies in Camelot: An Alternate 60's and Beyond

Longtime lurker, first time poster, I just wanted to say that this timeline is amazing! Just truly wonderful you do a great job with both pop culture politics and international relations all while juggling butterflies without getting too out of hand. Just really great work. I hope I am not overstepping myself when I ask if you would consider maybe in the future doing a chapter dedicated to the civil rights movement with all of the pods that you have put in. Other than that just great work again and LBJ 72!

Aw, thank you so much @Cybercat! :D I'm thrilled that you're enjoying Blue Skies thus far and hope I can keep up the good work for you. ;) I would be happy to cover the Civil Rights Movement and where it's at ITTL in the near future. I have several updates in the works right now, but I can add it to the list.

Welcome aboard!
 

Md139115

Banned
I have to agree with @theg*ddam*hoi2fan in this debate, even if some involvement of religion in government has brought good things, there has been alot more horrible things brought around by the inclusion of religious and theocratic beliefs into governments.

Obviously, if one were to pile all of the good things the interaction of religion and politics have done on the left side of a scale, and all the bad things on the right side, the sheer imbalance towards the right would flip the scale over. This is because humans are corrupt, blind, and hypocritical.

Here’s the thing though, fundamentally, the definition of politics is “of the people.” It’s literally the name (from polis). And what is more vital to people besides their religions and beliefs? This is not a hypothetical. Most would say that it’s a matter of critical, if not necessarily vital, importance. Roughly right in the middle, at the love and belonging tier, of Maslow’s little pyramid. I disagree; I think it is right at the very bottom, among the most basic physiological needs of the individual. What else can I say, having witnessed myself people denying themselves food, shelter, and sex for faith? And the sheer number of documented examples of people choosing pain and martyrdom for the sake of belief? One cannot separate the people from what they believe; even the Soviets and Chinese, offering substitutions rather than separations, failed.

Queen Elizabeth I once said “I do not make windows onto men’s souls.” Good for her; that was her belief, and at the time, England was a politics of one. As Parliament gained power though, the state became more invested in religion, until suddenly they were in a civil war over it. The Founding Fathers were of a group that, by and large, studiously avoided religion. And they got away with it in their lifetimes because of a combination of high esteem they were held in, and a seriously restricted franchise. As American history moved forward though, religion played a larger and larger role as the franchise expanded, until it indirectly caused the American Civil War. One could say the apogee of religion in American politics occurred on November 19th, 1863 when Lincoln spontaneously added “under God” to the speech he was giving at Gettysburg (his draft didn’t have it).

This might be a controversial statement, but it seems clear to me that the political character of the US has become more religious, and specifically more Christian, with each expansion of the franchise, with each leveling of the elites, and with each advance towards a hypothetical perfect democracy. I see no other way to explain this than by saying that while one can occasionally find an individual with not particularly strong convictions or completely different beliefs and outlooks, particularly among the upper classes, among a people and a society as a whole, one cannot escape the faith of the people, whatever it is.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the involvement of beliefs and religions in politics may be good, it may be bad, but it is, certainly, inevitable. One does not get a democracy inspired by the Koran from a Christian populace, one does not get a nation on Confucian principles from among the Hindus, and one does not get a state on agnostic or secular principles, unless the people themselves are agnostic or secular. When the people are of a religion then, the state cannot be a true democracy, representing the true politics of the people, unless it is likely.

The United States, sir, is a Christian nation. This has been masked in various artifices over the years, but it keeps on bleeding through, and it will continue to be so until the populace ceases to be Christian. Perhaps this is good, perhaps it is not good, regardless, I see no higher thing any individual can do in the present situation than to work for the most perfect Christian state possible.
 
Sorry if you’ve already answered this, but what is your current update schedule at this time, Mr. President?

No need to apologize! It changes pretty frequently depending on my work load and other life things. :p The current goal is to post a new update every Monday and Friday. If that should fail, I want to at least maintain a schedule of one update per week.
 
No need to apologize! It changes pretty frequently depending on my work load and other life things. :p The current goal is to post a new update every Monday and Friday. If that should fail, I want to at least maintain a schedule of one update per week.

Alright, thanks for letting me know. Can’t wait for the next update!
 
The United States, sir, is a Christian nation. This has been masked in various artifices over the years, but it keeps on bleeding through, and it will continue to be so until the populace ceases to be Christian. Perhaps this is good, perhaps it is not good, regardless, I see no higher thing any individual can do in the present situation than to work for the most perfect Christian state possible.
That's kind of ridiculous. This country stopped being a Christian nation when Buchanan failed to start a war in Utah (like literally every other thing Buchanan tried to do). (And yeah, Mormons are Christians, but other Christians were violently opposed to that fact at the time)

The First Amendment is traditionally interpreted, and was originally intended, to make this country a secular nation down to its core. The very idea that America is a Christian nation (known as Dominionism) is a frankly ridiculous notion in modern America. Note how Roy Moore's attempt to put explicitly Christian symbols on government property failed due to being illegal. American citizenship tests require no statement of Christian faith, American citizens follow numerous diverse faiths, most of them non-Christian. One of the Supreme Court Justices is Jewish (which would certainly not be allowed in an explicitly Christian nation), no institutions of our government rely upon Christian faith (oaths of office and court swearing-in oaths are sworn not on Bibles only, but on the appropriate holy book, and IIRC the oath is the only part legally required), and many founding legislators of the USA, such as Thomas Jefferson, were not Christians.

Although the majority of the population of the USA remain at least nominally Christian (though in my experience many do not actively practice their faith), the USA itself has no identity as a Christian nation, and in fact any such identity would be a clear violation of US supreme law.
 
A well written story, though I have to ask this question. You have covered most of the major conflicts in the world during that period, but I notice that you have completely avoided any mention of events in South Asia at all. Though not as headline grabbing, the events there were quite major as well. Two Wars between India and Pakistan, The Bangladesh Genocide, and one war between India and China during the Cuban crisis I think, as well as the first Indian Nuclear test as well. These are major geopolitical events which you have failed to even mention once in this timeline. Is it by omission, or did you just forget about them?
 
Obviously, if one were to pile all of the good things the interaction of religion and politics have done on the left side of a scale, and all the bad things on the right side, the sheer imbalance towards the right would flip the scale over. This is because humans are corrupt, blind, and hypocritical.

Here’s the thing though, fundamentally, the definition of politics is “of the people.” It’s literally the name (from polis). And what is more vital to people besides their religions and beliefs? This is not a hypothetical. Most would say that it’s a matter of critical, if not necessarily vital, importance. Roughly right in the middle, at the love and belonging tier, of Maslow’s little pyramid. I disagree; I think it is right at the very bottom, among the most basic physiological needs of the individual. What else can I say, having witnessed myself people denying themselves food, shelter, and sex for faith? And the sheer number of documented examples of people choosing pain and martyrdom for the sake of belief? One cannot separate the people from what they believe; even the Soviets and Chinese, offering substitutions rather than separations, failed.

Queen Elizabeth I once said “I do not make windows onto men’s souls.” Good for her; that was her belief, and at the time, England was a politics of one. As Parliament gained power though, the state became more invested in religion, until suddenly they were in a civil war over it. The Founding Fathers were of a group that, by and large, studiously avoided religion. And they got away with it in their lifetimes because of a combination of high esteem they were held in, and a seriously restricted franchise. As American history moved forward though, religion played a larger and larger role as the franchise expanded, until it indirectly caused the American Civil War. One could say the apogee of religion in American politics occurred on November 19th, 1863 when Lincoln spontaneously added “under God” to the speech he was giving at Gettysburg (his draft didn’t have it).

This might be a controversial statement, but it seems clear to me that the political character of the US has become more religious, and specifically more Christian, with each expansion of the franchise, with each leveling of the elites, and with each advance towards a hypothetical perfect democracy. I see no other way to explain this than by saying that while one can occasionally find an individual with not particularly strong convictions or completely different beliefs and outlooks, particularly among the upper classes, among a people and a society as a whole, one cannot escape the faith of the people, whatever it is.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the involvement of beliefs and religions in politics may be good, it may be bad, but it is, certainly, inevitable. One does not get a democracy inspired by the Koran from a Christian populace, one does not get a nation on Confucian principles from among the Hindus, and one does not get a state on agnostic or secular principles, unless the people themselves are agnostic or secular. When the people are of a religion then, the state cannot be a true democracy, representing the true politics of the people, unless it is likely.

The United States, sir, is a Christian nation. This has been masked in various artifices over the years, but it keeps on bleeding through, and it will continue to be so until the populace ceases to be Christian. Perhaps this is good, perhaps it is not good, regardless, I see no higher thing any individual can do in the present situation than to work for the most perfect Christian state possible.
Firstly, quite a cynical perspective on humanity, no? Secondly, I do not believe the United States is a Christian nation, anymore then it is a Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or any other nation. If, as you say, a nation bears the religion of its populace, surely the United States bears all religions, as its people come from all of them? That is the idea behind separation of church and state: Recognizing that one's people come from a diverse group of beliefs, and allowing the majority to impose on the minority is, in the words of Benjamin Franklin, "two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner." The point of the First Amendment is to protect the little guy. If someone doesn't want something said, it should be said, and the First Amendment protects that. So too does it protect religions, in all the varying types men have. Overall, as a Christian, I don't want a government founded on Christian principles, for I do not know those principles are accurate. I want a nation founded on moral principles, divorced from religion. My religion is to do good to all mankind. Have a government based on that, for all the beliefs in the world are nothing but empty fluff compared to a single life saved. Prayers are good, but action is better. Even if there is a God, one should act as if there is not one, for, when one cannot rely on an outside force to assist their fellow man, they must do good themselves, and that will do far more.
 
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A well written story, though I have to ask this question. You have covered most of the major conflicts in the world during that period, but I notice that you have completely avoided any mention of events in South Asia at all. Though not as headline grabbing, the events there were quite major as well. Two Wars between India and Pakistan, The Bangladesh Genocide, and one war between India and China during the Cuban crisis I think, as well as the first Indian Nuclear test as well. These are major geopolitical events which you have failed to even mention once in this timeline. Is it by omission, or did you just forget about them?

A fair question, @Adrien_skywalker, and I thank you for it! :) I haven't forgotten. I've been intending to cover South Asia for a while, I just admittedly have kicked the update down the road for too long. :p I offer no excuses, just a promise to get to covering it very soon. :) My apologies for this glaring omission, I shall remedy it!
 

Zwinglian

Banned
If morality should have a role in politics (and it should) then the largest moral system in America is gonna play a role in politics
 
If morality should have a role in politics (and it should) then the largest moral system in America is gonna play a role in politics
It should never, ever have an official role in politics, though, especially since "Christian morality" has such a broad definition, and most people even if they are Christian don't get their morality from there. It's just a stupid and highly unethical idea that will only cause strife in the long run.
 
If morality should have a role in politics (and it should) then the largest moral system in America is gonna play a role in politics
Yeah but there's a difference between wielding influence and playing a part, and being the founding undebatable moral cornerstone of the nation, enshrined in its legislation . Which simply put Christianity is not.
 
If morality should have a role in politics (and it should) then the largest moral system in America is gonna play a role in politics

It should never, ever have an official role in politics, though, especially since "Christian morality" has such a broad definition, and most people even if they are Christian don't get their morality from there. It's just a stupid and highly unethical idea that will only cause strife in the long run.

You are aware that moral systems not derived from religion exist, right?

woweed and Worf hit the nail on the head here. In fact, I would argue that the moral systems that should underpin a state - ie keeping citizens safe, enduring jobs and/or social security nets, defending the nation, ensuring human rights - transcend religion entirely and are simply things that decent humans of any or no religion can agree upon. Whereas religious morality - ie teachings on marriage, etc. - are entirely subjective because not everyone holds to them. Heck, frequently not everyone of the same religion and denomination believe the same things. As such, an individual religion’s teachings on, say, marriage should not be considered when legislating on marriage because not everyone shares that belief. Let a religious institution have their internal rules, sure - forcing a belief they don’t hold on them is as bad as their forcing it on the nation - but there’s the argument for keeping the two separate.
 
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