Blue Skies in Camelot: An Alternate 60's and Beyond
- Thread starter President_Lincoln
- Start date
If there is anyone knowledgeable about the history of the FBI, can you answer the following question:
OTL, what were the FBI's and US government's reactions to Hoover and his array of powers (both legal and otherwise) after the full extent of all the controversies was revealed? Were there any steps taken to curb the power of the director or the agency or reform either?
OTL, what were the FBI's and US government's reactions to Hoover and his array of powers (both legal and otherwise) after the full extent of all the controversies was revealed? Were there any steps taken to curb the power of the director or the agency or reform either?
Bobby and Ethel were definetly the most Catholic out of all the Kennedys except for Rose Kennedy. OTL, they had a child every one to two years. So let’s say...Allow me to get back to you on that one!I certainly think she could, with Bobby living longer ITTL.
1970 Boy
1971 Girl
Ethel is 43 in 1971, so I think she’s probably done, but I could see her having one last baby at 49 in ‘77.
It would not shock me if she kept having kids until ‘77 either. Wouldn’t even shock me if she even pushed out twins at some point.
For name suggestions, maybe James Edward Kennedy for the 1970 baby and probably Patrica for the 1971 baby.
The GOP is definitely walking a fine line at the moment, trying hard to hold their coalition of supporters together. Romney believes that by throwing conservatives a bone every once in a while he'll be able to maintain their support for his party. Whether or not that holds true remains to be seen. As for the YAF, the Republicans support their principles if not their methods. They'll want to cultivate an alliance but still cut down on their violence.
Thank you so much, ImperialTheorist!
I really appreciate that, and I'm thrilled you enjoyed the update. The War on Drugs will be controversial that's for sure, in the long run. In the immediate, it's been a boon for Romney's support among conservatives. A bit of a mixed bag, I suppose. I can say for sure that Romney's support comes from a genuine belief that it will help the country, for what that's worth. No dirt yet on President Romney.
He happens to be one of the few politicians at the time who was (to my knowledge) clean as a whistle. And for the time being, Romney is doubling down on his choice of Bush. He feels strongly about their relationship and keeping him on as Vice President. Reagan will continue to be in the national spotlight, especially as the 70's roll on, but his time is yet to come. I like these ideas
Let's go with them for now. Bobby and Ethel have thirteen children total then by the end of 1971. Their children are:
Kathleen
Joseph
Robert Jr.
David
Courtney
Michael
Kerry
Christopher
Max
Douglas
Rory
James
Patricia
Ask OTL Kennedy and the jimmy Carter (basically just throwing the opposing party faction a bone instead of actual concessions) how that went. If he continues to do that hell be asking for a challenger in 72
BP Booker
Banned
But inst this whole War on Drugs campaign, which is also a campiagn of sorts against the counter culture a huge concession already, also the conservatives are pretty hawky so they should be happy the war for now is going well right?. Althou not really a concession but a necesity for the elections I guess, what would be concession from the moderates to the conservatives?
Also a primary challenge is the best way to ensure President Muskie in 1972
The War on Drugs is a pretty huge concession to the Conservatives in my opinion as well. It also happens to be a policy area in which Romney largely agrees with them. So for the administration it seems to be a win-win.
It wouldn't surprise me if part of Johnson's conversation with Wallace went like this (this is from Network): "When you ran third party, you tampered with the forces of nature, Mr. Wallace, and YOU! WILL! ATONE!" (Now in a calmer voice) "Am I getting through to you, George, just how much you fucked up?" (Note: Johnson says all this while giving Wallace the Johnson treatment; cut to George Wallace, arch-segregationist, looking like he's about to crap and piss his pants...)
On a side note, I wonder what the War on Drugs will look like ITTL...
On a side note, I wonder what the War on Drugs will look like ITTL...
BP Booker
Banned
I mean realistically It would be the hippies and poor black inner city people, althou I wouldnt mind that whole hedonistic cocaine culture of Wall Street Juniors not existing. Ive seen waht cocaine can do to a person (granted he wasent a high up exec or anything) and is not pretty
well, Gerry ford and Nelson Rockefeller made similar moves in 70s on Drugs but it didnt help them much, Reagan almost deposed Ford (who only won due to the incumbuncey advantage) and Rocky got kicked stragiht off the ticket. Also, I think a conservative challenge is also more likely due to two factors, one the impending firestorm of the Hoover papers will make everything establishment even if it seems clean suspect, including the President whod theyd already be pre disposed to dislike for his moderate stances on other issues and besides they have to be chomping at the bit, they have seen Moderate to liberal domination of the party since 1952, with Conservatives being crushed by a united establisment, from Eisenhower at the 52 convention (they held a grudge about the tricks that Ike pulled on Taft for a LONG time) to Nixon endorsing Rocky, a philandering jerk in 64. Now they are going to at least want to send a message to Romney in the Primaries, maybe not a serious challenge but a good strong effort to win a couple states.
Who do you think the far right would support? I can see Reagan fully supporting his President on law and order, so he'd most likely be out of the running despite being a Conservative darling.
BP Booker
Banned
Ironically ITTL the conservatives will never know that the establishment saved the party of the national humiliation that Goldwater turned out to be. And Adlai Stevenson could have very well defeated Taft in 1952 OR if Taft would have won the the Republicans could have shattered along side isolationist and hawkish wings during his very short presidency
Two names right now, John Ashbrook, the man who challenged Nixon OTL over Detente and his liberal economics and this guy, Richard Viguerie, who i find more intriguing. OTL he was the guy who invented a lot of modern campaign techniques such as Mass Mailing (which was enormously key in defeating the ERA). He could either be the campaign manager or the Candidate in 72. He also brings along the YAF, He was the executive secretary for a while, which would provide the candidate a nice army of Campaign workers. then again he could try and save the ACP, but if he thinks he gets an enticing offer or makes the political calculation that their dead in the water anyway, he could still plausibly work up the gumption to either work for Ashbrook or go campagining on his own.
They have nobody, and the ACP is falling apart, because conservatism has been tainted for decades by association with outright neo-Nazis and other extreme reactionaries.
They really, really, really shouldn't have let Falwell, Wallace, and their cronies pal around with Rockwell's types. Just not a smart move. That's why Romney's trying a center-right social policy as the Democrats tack leftwards socially. On the plus side, this means left-wing agitation will be heavily reduced due to greater inclusion in the political process in the '70s; on the downside, the KKK is likely to become a problem and there's no way J. Edgar Assface is going to help fight them (which means Romney's throwing his ass out and Romney's so obsessed with not having skeletons in his closet (unlike his son, who never could resist the lure of being a stuffed-shirt corporate raider) that J. Edgar'll have no ammo to fight that throwing-out with).
What I want to see is Romney playing this smart and having Nixon and a few of his ratfuckers get Hoover's files (he'll probably have to pay them off by destroying J. Edgar's file on Nixon--price worth paying? Maybe, maybe not), then make his move on Hoover. That avoids the biggest threat J. Edgar can level (national political scandal and clusterfuck), and gets the bastard out.
Yeah, Hoover's met his match in a president who doesn't have skeletons in his closet; say what you will about George Romney's Mormonism, but I like him for that (I'm also surprised he was one of those politicians who genuinely doesn't have secrets). The only question is: how much damage will Hoover cause before he goes?
I wonder what happens to Mitt ITTL...
I wonder what happens to Mitt ITTL...
Otl, Goldwaters lose did not actually hurt their morale much.Basically they viewed it as a bad ass insurgency, which stuck it to the Wall Street "king makers" and while fallin, to quote FDR, did it daringly and planted the seeds of Conservative thought which would eventually take over the country