If the general consensus is Carolino I'd be fine with that. Rolls off the tongue easier anyway.
Bahia de Todos los Santos: Spanish Colonization of the Mid-Atlantic
- Thread starter Malta
- Start date
If the general consensus is Carolino I'd be fine with that. Rolls off the tongue easier anyway.
Gives a whole new meaning to the term "Latin America"
Wonder if there'll be a Anglo America TTL.
TTL Canada/ British Quebec... guess?
1. Carolina pretty much gets into conflict with Virginians and Natives every couple years for the next century.
2. Criollo on island keep things loyal to Spain for the next century almost.
3. Cuba would likely go to Mexico as they were both part of the Viceroyalty of New Spain.
Weeelll they are happy! Pretty freakin happy! Cause they have economic growth and no civil war and no intervention from their northern neighbor! Except for those Colombians! They can eat a canal!
If you spoke Spanish then you'd understand that Mexico said "Life is good."
Glad to Know and hope that you will can 'found'.
I think that would will be well complementary an update with the Mexican perspective or narrating the main events or from those which that have happened in Mexico from the Mexican point of view.
Just got caught up. Great TL. I'm kinda disappointed that Carolina and Spain couldn't settle things diplomatically. I'd have loved too see an Empire of Carolina similar to the Empire of Brazil.
Perhaps if Spain had been a little more conciliatory toward Carolina. However riled up by rebellions in South America I just didn't see their actions differing much from their OTL behavior. Namely keeping the Americans in a lesser position vis-a-vi Spain and going for the military solution.
I'd also blame landed interests in Spain not wanting to the government to not give any further ground to the Comuneros.
Part 32: War of Independence - 2nd Carolina Campaign
Part 32: War of Independence - 2nd Carolina Campaign
Starting strong for the Comunero cause in 1805 and 1806 the battle for Carolina seemed to take a drastic and dangerous turn for them as Spanish forces counter-attacked with an invasion of Bahia. General Condel de Lucena had blunted Comunero offensives into Cristiana and had gone on the offensive into the northern shores of La Bahia. To the south General de Arco had likewise succeeded in capturing Bahia forcing our Comunero forces.
As spring gave way into blistering Summer Comunero and Royalist fought to end the revolution in Carolina proper. If the Comuneros succeeded then the Spanish would effectively be kicked out of the majority of North America, but if they failed then behind the Sierra Apalchen the Spanish could re-gain control and become impervious to any assaults from Comunero leaders strung out across the Misisipi and Rio Grande.
No sooner had de Arco captured Bahia the fight for the 2nd Carolina campaign was on as now General Enrique Gonzalez Lopez moved his army up from Baja Carolina to Mareas and Senacoma to prevent the Spanish from gaining ground. In the heat waves that rocked the Mid-Atlantic both sides took casualties to sun stroke and outbreaks of mosquito born diseases.
However, for the Comuneros despite losing Bahia they still very much had terrain on their side. Gonzalez organized two offensives against Spanish possessions around Bahia to prevent the Spanish from moving outward. The locally known “Great Dismal Swamp” largely prevented the Spanish from moving men and equipment south into Mareas, hit-and-run raiders from Gonzalez’ forces also saw that patrols that ventured south of Bahia quickly disappeared in the overgrowth and loose soil.
Across La Bahia on the de Ayllon Peninsula between the Rio San Juan and Rio San Leon the Comuneros put up a more traditional fight after Spanish ships crossed La Bahia and Castillio de San Juan was captured after a brutal battle for control. Spanish forces moving up the peninsula however came into stiff opposition from Comunero forces who had created trenches and fortifications to slow down and halt Spanish movement toward Vila Rica, the capital of Senacoma. The so called “Rio Chueco” Campaign was named after the Rio Chueco (Chickahominy) where much of the later fighting between Comunero and Spanish forces would take place, only around 20 miles from Vila Rica. The culminating defeat was the Battle of Federico Colina when Spanish forces crossed the Rio Chueco only to be stopped at Pueblo Federicoand forced to surrender as flood tides prevented crossing of the river.
The actions by General Gonzalez bought valuable time for de Rivilla in the north, in Toledo he had used the winter of 1806-1807 to prepare his soldiers of the Army of the Ohio, training them in weaponry and battle tactics captured from the Spanish until he dubbed them the Republic’s “La Legion”. Satisfied he crossed the Sierra Apalchen in Mid-Summer of 1807, cutting into Cristiana by smashing the garrison set by the Royalists to prevent his passage. This quickly forced de Lucena to end his siege of Rivilla city and march back into Cristiana to deal with the threat posed by Rivilla. The two forces met around the town of Colina Santa (Gettysburg) where Rivilla having reached the town first quickly seized the advantageous positions on the hills and ridges surrounding the town so when de Lucena arrived he was forced to attack Rivilla from a greater position of disadvantage. The Battle of Colina Santa was won by Rivilla, and while it did not destroy de Lucena’s army it is seen as a major strategic win as it forced de Lucena to retreat and he was quickly chased by Rivilla who hounded the Spanish across the province. Almost within sight of Cristiana, Naravez’ vaquero riders forced de Lucena to give battle to Rivilla after hit-and-run attacks slowed down the pace of the Spanish forces. Much more bloody than at Colina Santa despite this the Comuneros won and de Lucena surrendered, with that Cristiana fell to Comunero forces.
The news of de Lucena’s defeat was a shot in the army to the Comuneros. Gonzalez forced de Arco back toward Bahia. Further south, after wrapping up Nuevo Cadiz and Mabila, Alcaldo had crossed south of the Sierra Apalchen into La Florida went on the offensive against San Agustin. Along the Rio Medio Pancho Naravez and Vincente Morales have turned south and west. Crossing the Sonora desert and into California Naravez helps Californian Comuneros take San Miguel. Morales has traveled south along the Pacific to help Mexican rebels take San Sebastian.
With Spanish gains sinking fast, de Arco called for reinforcements to begin a new offensive against the Comuneros. Before Arco could get his reinforcements however, the British stepped in. A combined British and Comunero fleet which included Delgado traveled north from the Bajamas and into La Bahia, cutting off Spanish access as they blockaded Spanish positions. With supplies dwindling and the Comuneros on the offensive, General de Arco surrendered to Gonzalez on November 5th, 1807. This victory for the Comuneros was the last major battle of the war, fighting continued into 1808 but with the capture of San Agustin the Spanish had no major toeholds in Carolina to launch a new offensive.
Events in Europe also moved ahead of Spanish colonial interests. Seeking to bring the Wittelsbachs to heel and purloin their remaining Caribbean possessions the French Republic invaded Spain once more. Spain’s ability to conduct their Reconquista collapsed at this point, Spanish dignitaries quickly asked the United Provinces in Nouevlle Rochelle to mediate a peace as soon as possible so that they could extradite their soldiers back to Europe and re-open American markets.
When news arrived of the Spanish requests for peace talks celebrations erupted across not just Carolina, but the entire Western Hemisphere.
Starting strong for the Comunero cause in 1805 and 1806 the battle for Carolina seemed to take a drastic and dangerous turn for them as Spanish forces counter-attacked with an invasion of Bahia. General Condel de Lucena had blunted Comunero offensives into Cristiana and had gone on the offensive into the northern shores of La Bahia. To the south General de Arco had likewise succeeded in capturing Bahia forcing our Comunero forces.
As spring gave way into blistering Summer Comunero and Royalist fought to end the revolution in Carolina proper. If the Comuneros succeeded then the Spanish would effectively be kicked out of the majority of North America, but if they failed then behind the Sierra Apalchen the Spanish could re-gain control and become impervious to any assaults from Comunero leaders strung out across the Misisipi and Rio Grande.
No sooner had de Arco captured Bahia the fight for the 2nd Carolina campaign was on as now General Enrique Gonzalez Lopez moved his army up from Baja Carolina to Mareas and Senacoma to prevent the Spanish from gaining ground. In the heat waves that rocked the Mid-Atlantic both sides took casualties to sun stroke and outbreaks of mosquito born diseases.
However, for the Comuneros despite losing Bahia they still very much had terrain on their side. Gonzalez organized two offensives against Spanish possessions around Bahia to prevent the Spanish from moving outward. The locally known “Great Dismal Swamp” largely prevented the Spanish from moving men and equipment south into Mareas, hit-and-run raiders from Gonzalez’ forces also saw that patrols that ventured south of Bahia quickly disappeared in the overgrowth and loose soil.
Across La Bahia on the de Ayllon Peninsula between the Rio San Juan and Rio San Leon the Comuneros put up a more traditional fight after Spanish ships crossed La Bahia and Castillio de San Juan was captured after a brutal battle for control. Spanish forces moving up the peninsula however came into stiff opposition from Comunero forces who had created trenches and fortifications to slow down and halt Spanish movement toward Vila Rica, the capital of Senacoma. The so called “Rio Chueco” Campaign was named after the Rio Chueco (Chickahominy) where much of the later fighting between Comunero and Spanish forces would take place, only around 20 miles from Vila Rica. The culminating defeat was the Battle of Federico Colina when Spanish forces crossed the Rio Chueco only to be stopped at Pueblo Federicoand forced to surrender as flood tides prevented crossing of the river.
The actions by General Gonzalez bought valuable time for de Rivilla in the north, in Toledo he had used the winter of 1806-1807 to prepare his soldiers of the Army of the Ohio, training them in weaponry and battle tactics captured from the Spanish until he dubbed them the Republic’s “La Legion”. Satisfied he crossed the Sierra Apalchen in Mid-Summer of 1807, cutting into Cristiana by smashing the garrison set by the Royalists to prevent his passage. This quickly forced de Lucena to end his siege of Rivilla city and march back into Cristiana to deal with the threat posed by Rivilla. The two forces met around the town of Colina Santa (Gettysburg) where Rivilla having reached the town first quickly seized the advantageous positions on the hills and ridges surrounding the town so when de Lucena arrived he was forced to attack Rivilla from a greater position of disadvantage. The Battle of Colina Santa was won by Rivilla, and while it did not destroy de Lucena’s army it is seen as a major strategic win as it forced de Lucena to retreat and he was quickly chased by Rivilla who hounded the Spanish across the province. Almost within sight of Cristiana, Naravez’ vaquero riders forced de Lucena to give battle to Rivilla after hit-and-run attacks slowed down the pace of the Spanish forces. Much more bloody than at Colina Santa despite this the Comuneros won and de Lucena surrendered, with that Cristiana fell to Comunero forces.
The news of de Lucena’s defeat was a shot in the army to the Comuneros. Gonzalez forced de Arco back toward Bahia. Further south, after wrapping up Nuevo Cadiz and Mabila, Alcaldo had crossed south of the Sierra Apalchen into La Florida went on the offensive against San Agustin. Along the Rio Medio Pancho Naravez and Vincente Morales have turned south and west. Crossing the Sonora desert and into California Naravez helps Californian Comuneros take San Miguel. Morales has traveled south along the Pacific to help Mexican rebels take San Sebastian.
With Spanish gains sinking fast, de Arco called for reinforcements to begin a new offensive against the Comuneros. Before Arco could get his reinforcements however, the British stepped in. A combined British and Comunero fleet which included Delgado traveled north from the Bajamas and into La Bahia, cutting off Spanish access as they blockaded Spanish positions. With supplies dwindling and the Comuneros on the offensive, General de Arco surrendered to Gonzalez on November 5th, 1807. This victory for the Comuneros was the last major battle of the war, fighting continued into 1808 but with the capture of San Agustin the Spanish had no major toeholds in Carolina to launch a new offensive.
Events in Europe also moved ahead of Spanish colonial interests. Seeking to bring the Wittelsbachs to heel and purloin their remaining Caribbean possessions the French Republic invaded Spain once more. Spain’s ability to conduct their Reconquista collapsed at this point, Spanish dignitaries quickly asked the United Provinces in Nouevlle Rochelle to mediate a peace as soon as possible so that they could extradite their soldiers back to Europe and re-open American markets.
When news arrived of the Spanish requests for peace talks celebrations erupted across not just Carolina, but the entire Western Hemisphere.
Part 33 – Mexico, Toward Independence.
Part 33 – Mexico, Toward Independence.
As Carolina and Mexico would call each other sister-republics moving forward one must look back at Mexico to see how it developed on its own course. Looking at the Kingdom of Mexico within the Viceroyalty of New Spain it would be hard to not notice the stark differences between the people of Carolina and Mexico.
The crown of the Spanish empire in the Americas, Mexico was viewed as far more important in comparison to Carolina. Where as Carolina was mostly viewed as a buffer to British and Dutch interests, Mexico was what the Carolinians protected. Mexico had the wealth of silver and gold that Carolina had lacked and it was an important link on the Manila trade route.
Not only that but the population was much more starkly different. By the time of independence Mexico had a population of five million compared to Carolina’s just over one million. Mexico was by far the majority populated by a different tribes and cultures of indigenous Americans, with a growing mestizo population all ruled by white Europeans. Carolina on the other hand was the opposite, its indigenous population much, much smaller than the European, Mestizo and then African populations that swelled year by year with new arrivals from overseas. The social dynamics between these populations also existed on different levels, the infamous Casta system was well in place in Mexico whereas in Carolina the Casta system had a much, much less hold on the population due to the pragmatism of early Carolinian settlers and righteous crusaders that followed de Montesinos.
Perhaps if the revolts by the elitist conservatives or the martyrdom of the priest Diego had not coincided so quickly with the growing trends of tipping the status quo or wider events in the political circles of Europe the Carolina and Mexico at the beginning of the 19th century would have been bitter rivals. No doubt leading to years of competition and invasion and counter-invasion from both, even if only one of them had achieved independence how would the two have developed? Would it have given rise to political instability as claudillos within either country took advantage of tensions between both states and competition between liberals and conservative political forces? While not always seeing eye to eye the friendly relationship between Carolina and Mexico had been pointed at many times as being why neither country suffered the series of military debacles experienced by their cousins in South America.
It would be the pre-mature revolt of the conservative elites in Mexico City, first the Bourbonistas in 1753 and then in 1798 following the death of Queen Joanna which sparked the first round of the Wars of Spanish American Independence. The leaders of these revolts were primarily the landed elite, though many of the liberal leaders were also elites within Mexican society, the conservatives of Mexico represented a desire to prevent the status quo in Mexico from following Carolina’s example of greater individual rights while keeping heavy-handed government intervention. Liberal elites who gravitated toward breaking the status quo wanted progress, meaning the breaking up of the old-backward power holds of the landed nobility but also those of the indigenous populations.
The Catholic Church would play an important role between the two factions as well as the masses in Mexico and Carolina. The Church feared the liberal push toward breaking their traditional land holdings and so initially aligned with the conservatives, this brought support of the peasant masses to carry out the coup in Mexico City. The martyrdom of Diego de Carolina though had an effect on relations between the local Church and conservatives in Mexico and Carolina as Diego had been killed by a member of the landed elite in Carolina. It made the Church hierarchy pause in their support of the conservatives and open a crack for more liberal, radical minded elements within the Catholic Church in Mexico especially as famine and misrule by the conservative Junta in Mexico City lead to a backlash among the peasantry. Salvador Allende’s “Faith and Good Rule” proclamation gave the Catholic Church a backdoor to work with neutral and moderate members of the liberal factions in Mexico especially as Spanish forces advanced on Mexico City.
Between the events of 1753 and 1798 the conservative elite in Mexico had been decimated by two generations worth of political purges of their members and supporters with Mexico’s social and political hierarchy. This lead to a new wave of liberal-minded leaders to seize power in Mexico just as they had done in revolting areas of Joseana and Carolina. Even prior to the Convention of Roble in 1805 leaders in Mexico had already organized a secret society toward seeing Mexico be free from the rule of Spain, that in the aftermath of the first round of revolts Spanish administrators took large reparations out of Mexico for rebelling not once but twice added fuel to the fire as the famine and lawlessness under the former conservative Junta failed to be fixed under restored Spanish administration.
Still, when the Mexicans revolted for the third and last time within fifty years unity was not whole throughout Mexico, as many communities, particularly Indio ones refused to work with the new liberal assembly that took power in Mexico City. In particular the Yucatan and Guatemala was the site of the fiercest rebellion against Spanish and Mexican authorities and it would take time and blood before it was integrated into Mexico.
As Mexico had been conquered by Spanish and Carolinian forces the presence of Spanish professional armies was much higher than in Carolina but so were sympathetic Carolinian conscripts. Fighting in the interior of Mexico gradually pushed out the elements of Spanish Royalists as assistance from Nueva Extremadura by Comuneros helped the Mexican Comuneros sweep through central Mexico and push the Spanish toward the coastlines on the Pacific and Gulf of Mexico. Much as in Carolina the timely intervention of the British also helped the Mexican rebels as the last Royalist strongholds along the Gulf of Mexico were blockaded by the British.
In Spanish had perhaps been able to crush the revolt in Carolina some wonder if they would have proceeded to re-conquer Mexico. They certainly would have tried to do so but many alternative history writers believe that by 1808 the invasion of Spain by the French Republic would have saved Mexico-perhaps not Carolina however. As mentioned earlier Mexico most likely would have gone through periods of crippling instability as insurrectionist and counter-invasions from Carolina would have rocked the country. Mexico would either have broken apart completely under the stress or become a puppet to the British or other European creditors. Again, the success of revolution in Carolina would greatly help Mexico become a stable republic by the end of the 19th century and along with Carolina an industrial powerhouse for the Americano Industrial Revolution.
As Carolina and Mexico would call each other sister-republics moving forward one must look back at Mexico to see how it developed on its own course. Looking at the Kingdom of Mexico within the Viceroyalty of New Spain it would be hard to not notice the stark differences between the people of Carolina and Mexico.
The crown of the Spanish empire in the Americas, Mexico was viewed as far more important in comparison to Carolina. Where as Carolina was mostly viewed as a buffer to British and Dutch interests, Mexico was what the Carolinians protected. Mexico had the wealth of silver and gold that Carolina had lacked and it was an important link on the Manila trade route.
Not only that but the population was much more starkly different. By the time of independence Mexico had a population of five million compared to Carolina’s just over one million. Mexico was by far the majority populated by a different tribes and cultures of indigenous Americans, with a growing mestizo population all ruled by white Europeans. Carolina on the other hand was the opposite, its indigenous population much, much smaller than the European, Mestizo and then African populations that swelled year by year with new arrivals from overseas. The social dynamics between these populations also existed on different levels, the infamous Casta system was well in place in Mexico whereas in Carolina the Casta system had a much, much less hold on the population due to the pragmatism of early Carolinian settlers and righteous crusaders that followed de Montesinos.
Perhaps if the revolts by the elitist conservatives or the martyrdom of the priest Diego had not coincided so quickly with the growing trends of tipping the status quo or wider events in the political circles of Europe the Carolina and Mexico at the beginning of the 19th century would have been bitter rivals. No doubt leading to years of competition and invasion and counter-invasion from both, even if only one of them had achieved independence how would the two have developed? Would it have given rise to political instability as claudillos within either country took advantage of tensions between both states and competition between liberals and conservative political forces? While not always seeing eye to eye the friendly relationship between Carolina and Mexico had been pointed at many times as being why neither country suffered the series of military debacles experienced by their cousins in South America.
It would be the pre-mature revolt of the conservative elites in Mexico City, first the Bourbonistas in 1753 and then in 1798 following the death of Queen Joanna which sparked the first round of the Wars of Spanish American Independence. The leaders of these revolts were primarily the landed elite, though many of the liberal leaders were also elites within Mexican society, the conservatives of Mexico represented a desire to prevent the status quo in Mexico from following Carolina’s example of greater individual rights while keeping heavy-handed government intervention. Liberal elites who gravitated toward breaking the status quo wanted progress, meaning the breaking up of the old-backward power holds of the landed nobility but also those of the indigenous populations.
The Catholic Church would play an important role between the two factions as well as the masses in Mexico and Carolina. The Church feared the liberal push toward breaking their traditional land holdings and so initially aligned with the conservatives, this brought support of the peasant masses to carry out the coup in Mexico City. The martyrdom of Diego de Carolina though had an effect on relations between the local Church and conservatives in Mexico and Carolina as Diego had been killed by a member of the landed elite in Carolina. It made the Church hierarchy pause in their support of the conservatives and open a crack for more liberal, radical minded elements within the Catholic Church in Mexico especially as famine and misrule by the conservative Junta in Mexico City lead to a backlash among the peasantry. Salvador Allende’s “Faith and Good Rule” proclamation gave the Catholic Church a backdoor to work with neutral and moderate members of the liberal factions in Mexico especially as Spanish forces advanced on Mexico City.
Between the events of 1753 and 1798 the conservative elite in Mexico had been decimated by two generations worth of political purges of their members and supporters with Mexico’s social and political hierarchy. This lead to a new wave of liberal-minded leaders to seize power in Mexico just as they had done in revolting areas of Joseana and Carolina. Even prior to the Convention of Roble in 1805 leaders in Mexico had already organized a secret society toward seeing Mexico be free from the rule of Spain, that in the aftermath of the first round of revolts Spanish administrators took large reparations out of Mexico for rebelling not once but twice added fuel to the fire as the famine and lawlessness under the former conservative Junta failed to be fixed under restored Spanish administration.
Still, when the Mexicans revolted for the third and last time within fifty years unity was not whole throughout Mexico, as many communities, particularly Indio ones refused to work with the new liberal assembly that took power in Mexico City. In particular the Yucatan and Guatemala was the site of the fiercest rebellion against Spanish and Mexican authorities and it would take time and blood before it was integrated into Mexico.
As Mexico had been conquered by Spanish and Carolinian forces the presence of Spanish professional armies was much higher than in Carolina but so were sympathetic Carolinian conscripts. Fighting in the interior of Mexico gradually pushed out the elements of Spanish Royalists as assistance from Nueva Extremadura by Comuneros helped the Mexican Comuneros sweep through central Mexico and push the Spanish toward the coastlines on the Pacific and Gulf of Mexico. Much as in Carolina the timely intervention of the British also helped the Mexican rebels as the last Royalist strongholds along the Gulf of Mexico were blockaded by the British.
In Spanish had perhaps been able to crush the revolt in Carolina some wonder if they would have proceeded to re-conquer Mexico. They certainly would have tried to do so but many alternative history writers believe that by 1808 the invasion of Spain by the French Republic would have saved Mexico-perhaps not Carolina however. As mentioned earlier Mexico most likely would have gone through periods of crippling instability as insurrectionist and counter-invasions from Carolina would have rocked the country. Mexico would either have broken apart completely under the stress or become a puppet to the British or other European creditors. Again, the success of revolution in Carolina would greatly help Mexico become a stable republic by the end of the 19th century and along with Carolina an industrial powerhouse for the Americano Industrial Revolution.
Another excellent and, at least in my opinion, very well written and also its best the situation's description (causes and consequences, including to these hypothetical and/or althistorical 'nitpicks' references).
I would like to see Carolina and Mexico attempt to be one country together though.
Thanks, I always appreciate comments. Mexico isn't going to be of course without its own internal issues, but hopefully I can get them to skip over the social Darwinism of Positivism.
Well, I haven't completely given up on that idea. The Unionistas are still around...
The vibe I've gotten from what we have of both Carolina and Mexico's future is that they're going to be converging, not diverging as far politics, economic development, etc. They've already got language and to an extent culture, modernity will result in a cultural standardization in Latin America that will be felt most strongly in the most developed states, ie Carolina and Mexico, much like how the Anglophone world is more or less a slight spin on the same formula thanks to America's soft power. How different is a Canadian suburb to an American one, after all? And unlike Canada, Mexico doesn't exist to be not-America. My current impression is that there's a realistic chance of it happening if things continue as they are.