An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Basileus444, Apr 30, 2015.

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  1. Stark Well-Known Member

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    I know, but it still sounds cool to me :) Brings the right vibe as well (scheming, indirect warfare, sophistication proper smugness).
     
  2. Namayan Well-Known Member

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    A bit surprising there. On equal footing in strength maybe this would happen. But the last time both HRE and Rhomania fought a battle, HRE along with all her allies just got clobbered by Andreas Niketas in the fight to defend Rome and the Pope. Of course there is no next round yet nor do I think HRE has the finance nor resources to fight the Romans at the present moment. And after smashing Hungary, considering how Andreas brushed aside every Catholic before that, every Catholic monarch or emperor must be terrified of Rhomania.

    After Andreas defeating HRE for the fight to save the Pope/Rome, I thought it was foregone conclusion Rhomania was already recognized as the Romans by that time at least straight at their face. HRE can probably call them Greeks behind Rhomania's back.
     
  3. Spatharios Well-Known Member

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    This. I can easily see Westerners calling it the "Rhomaic Empire", its people the "Rhomaioi" or "Rhomaics", whenever they don't simply call them "[schismatic, effeminate, etc.] Greeks".
     
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  4. IamtheEmps Member

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    How about Rhomanians? I mean it sounds better than Rhomaioi or something else, and it is partially grounded
     
  5. HanEmpire Delicious

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    The Westerners aren't going to call the Romans Roman-anything. They've spent centuries yelling at the Romans for calling themselves Romans, and have built up a ton of their legitimacy, religious authority, and prestige on the basis of the fraudulent claim that they're the heirs of Constantine. They're not going to give that up, especially when the TTL Catholics have grown a pathological need to one-up their Orthodox rivals.
     
  6. RogueTraderEnthusiast Well-Known Member

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    "We're gonna build a better Empire, with Black Plague and Jesters!"
     
  7. ImperatorAlexander Well-Known Member

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    It’s worth remembering that the power balance is swinging dramatically in favour of the Catholics (since the days of Andreas Niketas). They’ve taken back most of the powers from Avignon and the UK and Germany are just as powerful as the Roman Empire. If this new succession war kicks the Empire in the balls again Respect from the West may deteriorate again. From the German perspective Elizabeth is the rightful heir (backed up by her descent from the eldest daughter of Helena I), everyone else are usurpers.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  8. Thomas1195 Well-Known Member

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    Well, the problem is that the position of Rhomanian Empire was not well-suited for the next centuries, when the center of the world and the main trade routes would shift away from the Mediterranean following the discovery of the New World. England and Holland, and even France and Iberia were far better positioned.

    Besides, if one hostile naval power manage to control Gibraltar, the way to reach the ocean for the Empire would be shut.

    UK???

    By the 18th century, for nations like France or England, they could easily strong-arm the Empire by simply bringing some ships-of-the-line and having them firing just as a threatening message. Oh, and if realpolitik trumps religion, they would be a target for Russia.
     
  9. HanEmpire Delicious

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    Not really. TTL Roman Empire has been very trade-focused over the last few centuries and her trade prospects are better than the Ottomans' have ever been.

    -Romans never became complacent with having a spice-trade monopoly like the Ottomans did
    -Romans favour blue water navy
    -Romans have built a large network of trade ports and spice factories across the Indian Ocean and beyond
    -Romans have built large ship-building and weapon-manufacturing industries on the other side of the Suez Isthmus
    -Romans have converted and integrated various ethnic groups across its eastern holdings, creating a large dependable population base (notably unlike the Western Europeans - Romans are playing the long game)
    -Romans have powerful maritime allies in Ethiopia and Orthodox Japan
    -Romans are actively contesting the control of the Strait of Malacca and the Spice Isles against European rivals
    -Romans have powerful naval squadrons in the Indian Ocean constantly hunting rival spice traders

    The title of "Main Spice Trade Route" is very much in dispute.

    In addition the trade routes across Panama have been closed off by the Mexicans who now have enough modernized armies to put up serious resistance against European encroachment in Central America. Without New World gold Western Europe will soon enter economic crisis for lack of specie.

    The Empire has no interest in the Atlantic, it owns the Suez route.

    How do you figure the UK will do that when the Empire has Eastern Mediterranean locked down with fleets of equal quality?
    Russia is a fractured mess more interested in fighting itself. In addition realpolitik interests will ensure Russia will stay friends with the Roman Empire, not target it. Why on Earth would the Russians turn hostile when the Empire ensures stable trade through the Straits, is Russia's biggest trading partner, is the biggest ally it has against the Catholics to the west, and is proper Orthodox to boot?
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  10. Stark Well-Known Member

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    Are you sure you remember the events of this timeline? As HanEmpire has explained, none of the things you've said makes much sense.

    • Gibraltar is only a base, and not even on the narrowest part of the strait. Before mines, airplanes and long range artillery of 20th century you only close straits with a bigger stronger fleet, Gibraltar itself isn't that important.
    • Empire isn't on the Atlantic trade routes, but it's right there on the Asian one, which are if anything more profitable (much more people and money there).
    • Why do you assume Triunes (UK) would gain any significant advantage in naval technology? They are both first rate great powers of comparable abilities.
    • Realpolitik is not just overlaying OTL relations in TTL. OTL Russia had interests in Black sea region because Tatars pillaged and enslaved it's southern territories, it was bordered by hostile muslim states (not much trade there) and Ottomans blocked russian access to Med. In TTL Black Sea if fully orthodox, a huge trade hub and Russia has free access to Med.
    Realpolitik you think you see isn't there.
     
  11. Thomas1195 Well-Known Member

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    I mean, depending on the POD that allow the Romans avoid their fate.

    ITTL, the POD is after 1204, which, IMO, is a little too late.

    Also, how come the UK suddenly becomes Triunes?

    It was a fact that the Mediterranean was unsuitable for large ships like carracks or galleons during the 15th-16th century. Most of the warfares here involved galleys, which were a dead-end path. There is a reasons why big ocean-going ships were developed in countries which have access to the Atlantic.


    I think this is borderline ASB.

    The UK is an island, which means it does not have to maintain a huge army. This is not the case for the "Roman" Empire.

    Any version of post-1204 "Roman" Empire is not going to expand all the way down to Arab Peninsula or Egypt to get access to the Indian Ocean. It's just too weak to do so.

    Besides, it is a fact that Roman military technology began to lag behind the West during the OTL 13th-14th century.


    This is the 17th century, but wait and see.
     
  12. ImperatorAlexander Well-Known Member

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    IIRC it's the United Kingdoms of England, France and Ireland. So UK for short.
     
  13. ImperatorAlexander Well-Known Member

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    They control most of France, they have a pretty big army organised around their "Tours" system, enough to beat back Arles (supported by Castile) and a distracted Germany.
     
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  14. Thomas1195 Well-Known Member

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    United Germany??

    So basically England won the OTL Hundred Years War
     
  15. Sir Omega Lord of Spectators

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    First, this is the continuation of a previous timeline, in which are written how exactly events occurred for the world to get to this particular situation. Read that first, then snipe about this one.
    It basically went the same as in ITTL: some guy thought, hey maybe it would be a good idea to just build a bigger cog, add a bigger forecastle and aft-castle and put canons on it. Then fight Muslims with it. The technology evolved from there. It's just that in with just that this time it was the ERE instead of the Venetians who thought it first.
    Why? It was close to happen in IOTL, except with Catholicism instead of Orthodoxy. ITTL the ERE instead of the Portuguese are the ones who had close relations with the Japanese, and they were much more willing to arm and support their allies in the Far East. This time the Christian Daimyos in Japan had more support from the Europeans, moved more aggressively and won instead of being defeated by the traditionalists.
    This was also not the case for OTL Spain, who was both a great land power and the premiere naval power for a few centuries.
    Again, the Iberians. In 1204 nearly half of the peninsula was occupied by the Caliphate and were divided into Portugal, Castille, Navarra and Aragon. Spain in 1604 was an European superpower and owned biggest (and most profitable) swaths of land in the New World.

    I'm not seeing any real issues to stretch believability here.
     
  16. Christos Member

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    I’d like to also add about the plausibility of the ERE to expand and become again a great power in this timeline. Besides the Spanish as Sir Omega pointed out just simply look what the Ottomans accomplished 250 years after Osman’s death conquered the Balkans Hungary Anatolia the Levant Mesopotamia Egypt the Hedjaz Vassalized a large portion of North Africa.

    Jesus it’s like play EU4 on easy with cheats if that isn’t ASB then what is and this happened. Plus there are others examples look what Cyrus the Great did or Alexander.
     
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  17. Evilprodigy Evil Overlord of NWCG Donor

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    Rapid expansion almost always is followed by a complete collapse. Alexander's empire didn't last after his death after all and neither do most conquerors. What you get with the Ottomans, TTL Romans, and other successful large empires is a gradual expansion and consolidation. 250 years is an eternity when, theoretically, you could pull an Alexander and conquor the known world in a few years.
     
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  18. Christos Member

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    You are right i just wanted to make a point that these kind of conquests/expansions are feasible consolidate these gains is another matter
     
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  19. Lascaris Member

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    Really? Oddly enough I seem to remember that the post 1204 geopolitical continuation of the Byzantine empire did exactly that conquering Syria and Egypt, fighting it out with the Portuguese in the Indian ocean and sending expeditions out all the way to modern Indonesia. And given the way the post 1204 Anatolia was fragmented in over a dozen states which one would come on top was largely contingent on matters like frex Andronicus II disbanding the army in 1282. Or the house of Lascaris being backed by the Anatolian peasantry and vice versa and the Palaiologues hostile to it. Or the personalities of the early members of Osman compared to say the beys of Karaman. And so on.
     
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  20. HanEmpire Delicious

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    You didn't read the timeline did you?
     
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