I’m personally fine with Vermont joining greater New England if we can keep the novelty of little Rhode Island staying independent.
America Without a Bay: A Divided Country
- Thread starter PGSBHurricane
- Start date
New York could easily overpower Vermont but there's a strong possibility the other New England states come into play here too, so you never know.
I think that New York could try to conquer Vermont but the developing Union of New England comes to their rescue and the Vermonters are grateful enough to eagerly accept being incorporated into the nation.
I think it will come down to what Vermont wants and more so
The outcome of an upcoming war between New York and the New England states over Vermont.
IMO at this stage New England should run over New York if you run a Victoria 2-style autopilot game. New England, and even Massachusetts alone, still had population advantage over New York - plus had better militia and greater pool of ARW veteran manpower.
Last edited:
What ACW veterans? The American Civil War isn't for another 80 something years.
Got it. Having said that, I'm not sure if the New England states have authority from Congress to intervene in Vermont, but then again Congress is still weak here. Also, this probably won't be the only war fought at the same time.
It would be fun if the result of the New England-New York war would be that New York loses its upstate portion. If that were to happen I can see the rump remainder of the former state joining whatever regime forms in the Pennsylvania/New Jersey area after things fall apart.
Also it’d be interesting to not have the New England capital be in Boston. It’s probably likely given how it’s the largest city in the region, but maybe the other states request a different capital as a compromise. I can see it being in either western Massachusetts or in Connecticut.
Also it’d be interesting to not have the New England capital be in Boston. It’s probably likely given how it’s the largest city in the region, but maybe the other states request a different capital as a compromise. I can see it being in either western Massachusetts or in Connecticut.
At this point in history the population of New England is about four times that of New York. The days of NYC being a bustling megalopolis teeming with immigrants are long in the future. At this point in history the areas that would be Brooklyn and Queens are populated by only a few villages. And the monolithic future NYC is more than likely butterflied completely.
What do you think of New England picking a city other than Boston for its capital? I think it’d be a good way to assure the rest of New England that Massachusetts wouldn’t have too much influence on the nation’s government. And if it’s in Connecticut it’d be a way to satisfy the people who voted for the constitution.
It’s my head canon that a rump United States successor would form in the Mid-Atlantic region, sandwiched between New England and Virginia. So in my idea of the future New York would end up divided between this rump America and New England.
It’s something I’m definitely willing to explore although whether or not it works out like that is up in the air. And if upstate New York does join New England then there may or may not be a trade off. I’m also looking at a potential second war elsewhere in the United States so the decision on this matter might not arrive for a little while.
It'll be real interesting to see how articles 3 and 6 get interpreted in this context. While they're clearly meant to address external threats, they also theoretically would apply to internal threats as well. We saw this play out in a small way during Shays' Rebellion. The central government may attempt to intervene but they have such limited enforcement powers that it would probably be an embarrassing effort at best.
Now imagine that times two. One war going on in the North and another in the South. The National Government would definitely have its hands full there.
Maybe somewhere in Upstate New York, or, Vermont, most likely the former. But a non-Boston capital would only be plausible in a Greater New England scenario.
I agree that anywhere outside of Boston would be a long shot. But having said that, I don't think it would go to Connecticut just because they ratified the Constitution. I'm not even 100% sure they're going to be part of New England. Probably but no guarantees.
Chapter Four: Do Or Die - 1789 Edition
Chapter Four: Do Or Die - 1789 Edition
1789 was a make-or-break year for France, Britain, and the United States. After approval by the Parisian Parlement four months earlier, King Louis XVI issued a royal Edict on January 24, 1789, announcing the summoning of the Estates-General to help resolve financial issues, plus election procedures. The Third Estate, the largest Estate, represented everyone outside the clergy and nobles (comprising industrialists, lawyers, landowners, local officials, and tradesmen) and was concerned that the other two estates could defeat the Third 2-to-1. The king decided to “Double the Third” and increase the number of delegates to 578, but largely symbolically, as the Third Estate would later discover. The Estates-General convened on May 5, 1789, at Versailles, and the etiquette of 1614 was strictly enforced. King Louis XVI wanted to immediately discuss the issue of taxation. On the other hand, the Third Estate wanted to focus on representation (which supported each delegate getting one vote and all estates meeting as one body). The other two Estates, which still had grievances against absolutism, believed they would lose more power by joining the Third Estate than staying the course. Hence, there was an impasse. Verification of the Estates occurred in late May and early June, with the Third Estate arriving at a resolution on June 13. When efforts at reconciling the Estates failed, they completed verification separately and declared themselves the new National Assembly as news from America poured in.
The British, on the other hand, were in the process of re-organizing themselves in their own right. The first change was the resignation of Lord Frederick North on March 20, 1782, on account of the British loss at Yorktown, Virginia the prior year. There was even a cabinet suggestion that the courts try North for his conduct of the war in America, but this went nowhere. The second was the rebuilding of its colonial empire. In May 1787, the First Fleet, captained by Arthur Philipps, left Portsmouth, England, and landed in Botany Bay (or Stingrays Bay) on January 18, 1788, with 1,400 people on board to start a penal colony. Things did not quite work out to plan, however, as the land was quickly deemed unsuitable for settlement. There was insufficient freshwater, the shores were too swampy, the bay was open and unprotected from invaders, the water was too shallow, the soil was poor, and the trees too strong to cut. As a result, Captain Arthur Philip decided to relocate to Port Jackson on January 26, where there was a much better natural harbor. This was just two days after the expedition of French explorer Jean-François de Galaup, comte de Lapérouse was seen outside Botany Bay. This new settlement was named Sydney for Home Secretary, Thomas Townshend, 1st Baron Sydney. The colony of New South Wales was proclaimed in February. For the next four years, Arthur was in control of the colonial governorship and building it up from scratch, watching North America tear itself apart halfway around the world.
In North America, the situation was volatile. Within two weeks of each other, two prominent figures in American politics, Alexander Hamilton and James Madison, were dead. While anti-federalists in the South and West were jubilant about Hamilton’s death, others were still mournful. Except for small states like Delaware, New Jersey, and Rhode Island, the attitude towards James Madison’s death nationwide was more dignified. None of this changed the fact Congress was left in greater disarray than ever and could effectively do nothing about it. Without Madison's leadership, it seemed like no one else had the same grand vision he had to call for a second Grand Federal and add amendments to the Constitution in a way that would officially unify the states. Complicating the situation further, the New York legislature announced on June 13, 1789, that it would send troops to Vermont to enforce its claims on the quasi-independent state. The states in New England (New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and Connecticut) were outraged over this and threatened to declare war if New York did not withdraw. They refused, so it was a war they got. The four New England states sent in money and troops to help defend Vermont from the New York invasion despite not legally having the authority to do so from Congress since it had little power in practice. For weeks and months, war raged throughout the Republic of Vermont. There were two failed attempts at negotiations to end the war. The first was in October 1789 under the urging of George Washington and again in March 1790. Only on October 7, 1790, New York called for a peace deal, which was not fully implemented until 1791.
As soon as the New England states (led by Massachusetts and New Hampshire) declared War on New York over their invasion of Vermont, which was preceded by the death of the pro-Vermont Alexander Hamilton, it was becoming clear that the United States would be a failed state in a matter of years. It also became increasingly clear since ratification failed that Georgia would not be receiving any federal assistance in fighting the Native Americans and that South Carolina would not have direct access to the West without Georgia. Isolated from the other ratified states, the state governments of Georgia and South Carolina soon discussed withdrawing from the Constitution and forming a confederation to counter their more powerful neighbor to the North, Virginia. The government of North Carolina received an invitation on August 21 from its two southern neighbors to join them in this new union. The next day, the state legislature set a period to debate this measure and vote on it later in the year. As word traveled across the Appalachians, frontiers settlers were unhappy about this and, once more, rose in rebellion in any way they could. On paper, it seemed like it was all for naught when North Carolina voted on November 21, 1789, approving a union with Georgia and South Carolina, effective January 5, 1790. Of course, that did not stop the rebellious sentiment in western North Carolina from a people who were fiercely independent and wanted to be left alone. Throughout the winter and early spring of 1790, Kentucky and Virginia sent weapons and troops to help intervene on behalf of trans-Appalachian North Carolina. War was formally declared in April, and the conflict would also rope in powerful groups of Native Americans, making it far bloodier than the war up north.
A/N: For the war in the Southern states, I've been tinkering with this one for a while and struggling to figure out how to make it work. I'm not great at military history so this is the best I can do for now. If anyone identifies any issues, I would be glad to change them.
Last edited:
Alright, now that we are five chapters in (four plus the prologue), what are your thoughts on this TL?
strawpoll.com
What is your opinion on this TL so far? - Online Poll - StrawPoll.com
What's your opinion? Vote now: Very realistic, Generally realistic, Semi-realistic/semi-ASB, Generally ASB, Very ASB...
strawpoll.com