Alternatives to the Bomb - how to win against Japan?

Suppose the Allies decide not to drop the Bomb on Hiroshima or Nagasaki. In fact let's say they decide to not drop the bomb on Japan, at all.

Was there any alternative way to defeat Japan? That is apart from an invasion?

The Americans had a tight blockade around the Japanese home islands and they were basically bombing the Japanese cities to rubble. Could they have just held off on an invasion indefinitely? Could they have just choked the Japanese economy into collapse and thus gotten the Japanese to surrender?

Could such a surrender have led to a Japanese version of the 'stabbed in the back' myth?

Perhaps Japanese warrior culture where defeat is unacceptable might stop them from giving up so soon. But would they not give up eventually?

How much more would it cost in allied lives to continue the typical bombing and blockading compared to an invasion?

How many more civilian deaths would occur from such a bombing and blockading campaign?

Thank you for your responses. :)
 
It could be argued that the Soviet declaration of war, which placed the IJA in Manchuria and Korea in an extremely precarious situation, was just as influential (if not more) as the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
 
Suppose the Allies decide not to drop the Bomb on Hiroshima or Nagasaki. In fact let's say they decide to not drop the bomb on Japan, at all.

Was there any alternative way to defeat Japan? That is apart from an invasion?

The Americans had a tight blockade around the Japanese home islands and they were basically bombing the Japanese cities to rubble. Could they have just held off on an invasion indefinitely? Could they have just choked the Japanese economy into collapse and thus gotten the Japanese to surrender?

USN RAdm (then Captain) Dan Gallery (he that captured the U-505) was then an alternate member of the Logistics Committee of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The plans for invasion of Japan came before the Logistics Committee on a day when Gallery was sitting. He suggested that it was not necessary to invade Japan, because Japan would collapse from the Allied blockade. The response was... discouraging. In Gallery's own words: "I should have stood in bed. The Army and Air Force members looked at me as though I had puked on the table."

Could such a surrender have led to a Japanese version of the 'stabbed in the back' myth?

Probably not, because by the time Japan surrendered, pretty much all of Japan's overseas empire would be lost.

Perhaps Japanese warrior culture where defeat is unacceptable might stop them from giving up so soon. But would they not give up eventually?

Well, here's a point. The last fantasy plan of the military hardliners was that when the US forces landed in the Home Islands, the Japanese would hit them with gigantic banzai attacks using the entire population, i.e. women and children with pointy sticks. This would inflict such heavy casualties on the US that it would shock the "soft" Americans, who would agree to a negotiated peace on Japanese terms.

If the US ostentatiously doesn't invade, this fantasy collapses.

How much more would it cost in allied lives to continue the typical bombing and blockading compared to an invasion?

Much fewer, in terms of direct military casualties.

How many more civilian deaths would occur from such a bombing and blockading campaign?

Japanese civilian deaths? More than immediate surrender, I guess. Because the bombing and blockade would continue unabated, invasion or not.

Though most of these deaths would not be from Allied military action, but from starvation and epidemic disease, as Japanese food production and public health broke down.

Note, thought, that there would also be millions of deaths outside Japan, due to starvation, disorder, and murder by Japanese occupation forces. The hardliners planned to order the murder of all Allied PoWs and civilian internees, to begin with. And the death toll from Japanese misrule in China was enormous.

Nonetheless, it's difficult to imagine the hardliners ever admitting that surrender is compelled, and without the terrifying shock of atomic bombs, the "rational" faction might never get Hirohito to intervene.

There is one scenario I've thought of that might work. Suppose, after the occupation of the Philippines, US forces landed on the Chinese coast and pushed inland to link up with Chinese forces. Then the US and China begin a massive operation to equip and train lots of Chinese troops. The Allies clear the Japanese from south China, and then from Shanghai-Nanking and toward Peking, with Chinese troops doing most of the grunt work. There are public references to Chinese troops joining the invasion of Japan, with Chiang and other Chinese leaders talking about marching through Tokyo. Now that last fantasy of the hardliners is worthless - because the Chinese will not back off due to any amount of casualties the Japanese can inflict. The campaign in China shows that the Chinese (with some US help) will win. And Chinese conquest of Japan will be... ugly. Better to quit now.

A potential US-Soviet invasion of Japan has much of the same potential, especially after a Soviet blitz of Manchuria and Korea.
 
I'm of the opinion that Japan was most likely bound to surrender anyways, the bomb and the Soviet entry just accelerated things. Without the bomb, it would probably take a few more weeks. Without the Soviets it would also have taken a few more weeks, and possibly, a third bomb. Without the bomb and without the Soviets it probably would have taken a few months. The Japanese government tended to come to decisions by slowly forming a consensus over a period of time and one can see that consensus start to build in the aftermath of Okinawa. The problem for the Japanese is that the consensus building process was far, far too slow for them to save Hiroshima or Nagasaki or the Kwantung Army.

Of course, in the interim that would mean far more dead... the estimate I've seen is a hundred thousand dead for every week the surrender is delayed. And there is also the very real possibility that the hardliners would overturn the trend by staging a coup, as was actually attempted OTL. In which case you can throw my above paragraph right out the window.

Also Anarch has a point that if the US up and declares it's intention to not invade but bombard and blockade forever, the Hardliners entire basis for Ketsu-Go kind of falls apart right then and there. No guarantee that it would work, they might find some other insane rationale for holding out, but it's some food for the thought.

USN RAdm (then Captain) Dan Gallery (he that captured the U-505) was then an alternate member of the Logistics Committee of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The plans for invasion of Japan came before the Logistics Committee on a day when Gallery was sitting. He suggested that it was not necessary to invade Japan, because Japan would collapse from the Allied blockade. The response was... discouraging. In Gallery's own words: "I should have stood in bed. The Army and Air Force members looked at me as though I had puked on the table."

When exactly did this happen? Because there is considerable evidence that a number of men in the Army, particularly Marshall, was starting to come around to the idea of abandoning Olympic by mid-August just before the Japanese surrender made it moot.
 
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The Japanese view at the time could perhaps be summarised by Todshikazu Kase, an official at the Japanese Foreign ministry, who stated “It is certain that we would have surrendered in due time without terrific chastisement of the bomb or the terrible shock of the Russian attack. However it cannot also be denied that both the bomb and the Russians facilitated our surrender.” The Soviet declaration of war and subsequent invasion of Manchuria would likely have caused Japan to surrender on its own within a similar timeframe as OTL.
 
@PoorBoy That is correct, but the question is how much longer would the Japanese hold out with a soviet invasion but no nukes? And as @ObssesedNuker rightly points out it could've only been a few weeks to maybe a couple of months with a soviet
invasion of Manchuria, Korea, Kurils etc. In which case we may see a unified Communist Korea and a Japan divided among a communist north and a capitalist south. But that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Nevertheless the Soviet invasion was a huge deal and would've hastened the surrender of Japan regardless of the Bomb, as @The Red pointed out.

@Anarch King of Dipsodes Excellent response. However i don't know if the US would be eager to arm the Nationalists in China because that would greatly anger both the communists in China and the Soviets. Also clearing out a sizeable chunk of coastal China so as to establish direct contact with the Nationalists (i.e., from a route not over the Himalayas) would consume a lot more troops than any single island campaign the Americans conducted, or perhaps more than all of them combined.

Thank you all for the excellent responses, all of my queries about this situation have been addressed :)
 
Absent the A-bomb, the solution is still simple - fire-bomb the everloving shit out of the Japanese mainland. Sooner or later the Japanese are going to be starved out and surrender well before Operation Downfall goes into effect. And if they don't, well, the Americans are probably going to walk into the Walking Dead if they invade.
 

Geon

Donor
I've written this on another thread but think it bears repeating.

The Japanese had an operational plan called the Ketsu-Go operation. If the Americans invaded the Japanese would be throwing thousands - not hundreds - of aircraft at them.

From an article on this subject I quote the following figures.

At the end of the war, Japan had approximately 12,725 planes. The Army had 5,651 and the Navy had 7,074 aircraft of all types. While many of these were not considered combat planes, almost all were converted into kamikaze planes. The Japanese were planning to train enough pilots to use all of the aircraft that were capable of flying.

This is from the website: https://fas.org/irp/eprint/arens/chap4.htm
As to further bombing and a blockade-the armed forces of Japan it is possible that combining the two might eventually lead Japan to surrender. But, likely the operation would have cost many American lives. I could see the Japanese using their carefully hoarded planes and their remaining navy in kamikaze attacks on any assets offshore.

In the end Japan would have surrendered, but as the TL-Decisive Darkness pointed out-with how many dead and at what cost to both Japan and the U.S.?

If the bomb were not dropped and we decided on an invasion or blockade strategy I submit that years later once it was known that we had the Bomb there would be arguments regarding whether or not using the Bomb would have cost fewer lives on both sides. One documentary I watched said that if the widows, and loved ones left behind by those Americans killed in an invasion had known we had the Bomb and refused to use it they would have lynched Truman on the White House Lawn!
 
A side question on this: assume the US blockades. Would the USSR go along with this and also just blockade, or go for an invasion (yes, I know this is borderline insane... but don't forget Stalin)? If so, would it be able to do so? While it's navy was small, Japan is "right next door", so to speak. Logistics are far more simple than those of the US.
 
Suppose the Allies decide not to drop the Bomb on Hiroshima or Nagasaki. In fact let's say they decide to not drop the bomb on Japan, at all.
Was there any alternative way to defeat Japan? That is apart from an invasion?
The Americans had a tight blockade around the Japanese home islands and they were basically bombing the Japanese cities to rubble. Could they have just held off on an invasion indefinitely? Could they have just choked the Japanese economy into collapse and thus gotten the Japanese to surrender?
Could such a surrender have led to a Japanese version of the 'stabbed in the back' myth?
Perhaps Japanese warrior culture where defeat is unacceptable might stop them from giving up so soon. But would they not give up eventually?
How much more would it cost in allied lives to continue the typical bombing and blockading compared to an invasion?
How many more civilian deaths would occur from such a bombing and blockading campaign?
Thank you for your responses. :)

There were alternatives to the Bomb, but all had major downsides.
The main three are:
1) blockade
2) invasion, or
3) more lenient surrender terms (which might make them more likely to surrender faster)

Any of these would be accompanied by (or preceded by) continued or intensified conventional bombing of Japan. This will not only destroy many cities, but severely disrupt transportation, production (of anything), and agriculture. Assuming this goes on for months longer than IOTL, there will be 100s of thousands of Japanese dead from bombing, starvation, and disease.

Blockade, accompanied by bombing, will take a long time and that will mean millions of US, UK, and Russian forces kept on active duty, and the expenditure of 10s of billions of dollars in pay, fuel, equipment, bombs, etc. All the allies will complain, "Just end it already."

Invasion will take about 6 months more to prepare. Again, there's a huge cost of keeping forces active and supplied. Then, the invasion will be very, very bloody and will take a long time. By the time it's over, there will be millions of Japanese dead (from combat, disease, starvation, etc) and Japan will be an ash heap. Allied rebuilding aid, if any, is likely to be less and the occupation more severe.

Lenient surrender terms were extremely unlikely at that point. The allies had already committed to unconditional surrender and had floated their best terms in the Potsdam Declaration. When the Japanese rejected that, A-bomb mission planning went forward. If the allies forgo the Bomb, they're only going to be more pissed at the continued cost and loss of life associated with continuing and are, thus, unlikely to give better terms.

So, though the A-bombs killed several hundred thousand people, that (relatively) early end to the ware was by far the least bloody outcome for the Japanese unless they could get their political, military leadership to accept surrender earlier.
 
Suppose the Allies decide not to drop the Bomb on Hiroshima or Nagasaki. In fact let's say they decide to not drop the bomb on Japan, at all.

Was there any alternative way to defeat Japan? That is apart from an invasion?

The Americans had a tight blockade around the Japanese home islands and they were basically bombing the Japanese cities to rubble. Could they have just held off on an invasion indefinitely? Could they have just choked the Japanese economy into collapse and thus gotten the Japanese to surrender?

Could such a surrender have led to a Japanese version of the 'stabbed in the back' myth?

Perhaps Japanese warrior culture where defeat is unacceptable might stop them from giving up so soon. But would they not give up eventually?

How much more would it cost in allied lives to continue the typical bombing and blockading compared to an invasion?

How many more civilian deaths would occur from such a bombing and blockading campaign?

Thank you for your responses. :)

I've said several times over. Demonstrate the A-bomb over Tokyo Bay, after sundown for maximum shock effect. It would be both extremely convincing, and (likely) bloodless. A Big Stick policy.
 
I've said several times over. Demonstrate the A-bomb over Tokyo Bay, after sundown for maximum shock effect. It would be both extremely convincing, and (likely) bloodless. A Big Stick policy.

Tbh, I doubt it would work. They didn't surrender after a real use, in Hiroshima. And, even after Nagasaki, there were still some willing to fight...
 
@Anarch King of Dipsodes Excellent response. However i don't know if the US would be eager to arm the Nationalists in China because that would greatly anger both the communists in China and the Soviets.

The US had been pouring arms into China for years, and continued to do so after the war. Why would the US refrain from providing arms to an official Allied power fighting the Axis because it would annoy that government's political enemies? And the USSR had also provided arms to China to fight Japan. What possible basis could the USSR have for objecting to US arms supply to China? Other than "We're planning to overthrow the Chinese government"?
 
Tbh, I doubt it would work. They didn't surrender after a real use, in Hiroshima. And, even after Nagasaki, there were still some willing to fight...

I would tend to agree, though there is something to be said for the ministers seeing it with their own eyes. That being said, if they don't surrender, we now have one less bomb. Additionally, we'd have heard a lot of complaints about cancer in Tokyo.
 
I would tend to agree, though there is something to be said for the ministers seeing it with their own eyes. That being said, if they don't surrender, we now have one less bomb. Additionally, we'd have heard a lot of complaints about cancer in Tokyo.

The problem isn't the ministers, it's the hardcore militarists in charge, like Tojo...
 
The US had been pouring arms into China for years, and continued to do so after the war. Why would the US refrain from providing arms to an official Allied power fighting the Axis because it would annoy that government's political enemies? And the USSR had also provided arms to China to fight Japan. What possible basis could the USSR have for objecting to US arms supply to China? Other than "We're planning to overthrow the Chinese government"?

Also, the USSR was aligned with the KMT more than Mao's faction for a long time because they didn't entirely trust Mao (with good reason).
 
The problem isn't the ministers, it's the hardcore militarists in charge, like Tojo...

The Emperor, the Privy Council, and the Supreme Council (Big 6) were apparently key to the decision. The Big 6 were:
Most of them could be considered militarists, but support for continuing the war was mixed after Nagasaki and the Russian declaration of war. The Emperor broke the impasse by deciding to surrender.
 
I would take do it traditionally...bombing till oblivion, invasion, them capture till someone surender, please read decisive darkness for more details(and even there atomic weapons were necessary)
 

marathag

Banned
It could be argued that the Soviet declaration of war, which placed the IJA in Manchuria and Korea in an extremely precarious situation, was just as influential (if not more) as the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Argued, but Hirohito's speech said not a word over it
 
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