Alternative Arabic Expansions

DanMcCollum

DanMcCollum

Beginning in 632 AD the Arabs, united by the new Islamic faith, began their first incursions into the Sasanian Empire as well as the Byzantine state. Due to the long, drawn out, conflict between the Byzantines and Persians (and owing a fair bit to religious divisions within those states as well) the Arabs were able to conquer all of Persia, Egypt and Mesopotamian. Its a story that is pretty well known to anyone who studies history.

I've often heard it said that the invasions were partially the result of population pressures within the Arabian peninsula itself; you had a growing population and not enough land/resources to fully support it. In many ways, these were similar circumstances to what led the Norse to their raiding and settling in Europe about two centuries later. Coupled to this, you had the fact that the entire peninsula had been recently united and also which had embraced a new faith.

So, my question to you is: Assuming that the population pressure theory is correct, how else might the Arabs have expanded. Lets assume that the Byzantines and Persians hadn't fought one another to a bloody standstill and were not so depleted. If the Arabs expand in that direction, they are much less successful; possibly picking up some territory, but not nearly the glorious victories of OTL. Where else might they expand?
 
DanMcCollum

DanMcCollum

Wendell said:
East Africa and the Red Sea coast, the Indian Ocean and South Asia.
Click to expand...

That's, more or less, one of the 'paths' that I was thinking about. How strong do you think this state would be in relation to its neighbors. I also wonder if we would see large scale Arabic settlements in, say, Axum and modern day Somalia.
 

Jürgen

The most likely result would simply be that the Arabs conquered a few border area and settled there. The Arabs of Egypt, Persia and the Crescent was likely a relative small elite.
 
Yun-shuno

Yun-shuno

Banned
I wonder if the Arabs converted to some heretical form of Christianity or remained pagan.

That would have made the dynamics of the era more interesting and dynamic I think.
 
fluttersky

fluttersky

Here's a map of the OTL Ummayads at their greatest extent. Gives you a pretty good idea of where the Arabs expanded into.

UmayyadCaliphate.png

And four hypothetical alternatives that I can think of:

1) Down the Nile.
UmayyadCaliphate1.png
2) Down the African coast.
UmayyadCaliphate2.png
3) Onto the Eastern European plains.
UmayyadCaliphate3.png
4) Into India.
UmayyadCaliphate4.png
 
GauchoBadger

GauchoBadger

DanMcCollum said:
Beginning in 632 AD the Arabs, united by the new Islamic faith, began their first incursions into the Sasanian Empire as well as the Byzantine state. Due to the long, drawn out, conflict between the Byzantines and Persians (and owing a fair bit to religious divisions within those states as well) the Arabs were able to conquer all of Persia, Egypt and Mesopotamian. Its a story that is pretty well known to anyone who studies history.

I've often heard it said that the invasions were partially the result of population pressures within the Arabian peninsula itself; you had a growing population and not enough land/resources to fully support it. In many ways, these were similar circumstances to what led the Norse to their raiding and settling in Europe about two centuries later. Coupled to this, you had the fact that the entire peninsula had been recently united and also which had embraced a new faith.

So, my question to you is: Assuming that the population pressure theory is correct, how else might the Arabs have expanded. Lets assume that the Byzantines and Persians hadn't fought one another to a bloody standstill and were not so depleted. If the Arabs expand in that direction, they are much less successful; possibly picking up some territory, but not nearly the glorious victories of OTL. Where else might they expand?
Click to expand...

From what i can say, an arab defeat at Yarmouk in 636 could discourage the arabs from expanding past the levant and force them to seek another route. That is, if the byzantines/persians can mantain a strong presence in the area after the battle.
 
Practical Lobster

Practical Lobster

Fluttersky - Islam, if not the Arabs themselves, did expand into all the areas you show. However logistically based on the geography of the Indian ocean, it seems that the Arabs themselves would be limited in any attempts to do any of those but number 1.
 

John7755 يوحنا

Lampiao

Down the Nile and the African East coast would be cool. I can imagine Muslim Ethiopia as a maritime empire, controling the most important ports of the Indian Ocean. Can we foresee Muslim Ethiopian Singapore? Now that's something new.
 
DanMcCollum

DanMcCollum

Arkenfolm

The Indian Ocean, so an Arab presence in Madagascar (if not complete assimilation of the proto-Malagasy) as well as in the Mascarenes. This would require a naval tradition, so probably means they need to expand into Somalia and East Africa first.
 
DanMcCollum

DanMcCollum

metalinvader665 said:
The Indian Ocean, so an Arab presence in Madagascar (if not complete assimilation of the proto-Malagasy) as well as in the Mascarenes. This would require a naval tradition, so probably means they need to expand into Somalia and East Africa first.
Click to expand...

Well, Himyar and other pre-Islamic states seemed to have naval traditions as they relied on trade. Maybe if the Axum invasion of Himyar goes differently?
 

Arkenfolm

ramones1986 said:
Well, it's either Nestorianism, Monophysitism or Ebionitism, whose teachings were more or less close to Islam
Click to expand...

Or Judaism, since aren't the Yemeni Jews descended in part from Arab converts? Arabia is likely to remain religious divided. And don't count out traditional Eastern Orthodoxy, or more outside bets like Mandaeism.

DanMcCollum said:
Well, Himyar and other pre-Islamic states seemed to have naval traditions as they relied on trade. Maybe if the Axum invasion of Himyar goes differently?
Click to expand...

Yeah, it would be the peoples in nowadays Yemen. Which also means that Indian Ocean expansion toward India itself is also in the cards for this Arab expansion. And since that region was the most affected by population pressure, it makes sense.
 
DanMcCollum

DanMcCollum

metalinvader665 said:
Yeah, it would be the peoples in nowadays Yemen. Which also means that Indian Ocean expansion toward India itself is also in the cards for this Arab expansion. And since that region was the most affected by population pressure, it makes sense.
Click to expand...

Off handed question: One of the reasons I'm asking this is to help gain information and insight for my current timeline.

Although the Arabic world isn't it's main focus, I am loathe to not chase down butterflies as best I can.

Do, you, by chance, have any good sources I could look at? Currently, I'm relying mainly on Wikipedia and any lectures I can find on pre-Islamic Arabia. I like to think I've pieces together a logical and engaging narrative so far. But, as is the cse with these things, more information always helps.
 

Arkenfolm

DanMcCollum said:
Off handed question: One of the reasons I'm asking this is to help gain information and insight for my current timeline.

Although the Arabic world isn't it's main focus, I am loathe to not chase down butterflies as best I can.

Do, you, by chance, have any good sources I could look at? Currently, I'm relying mainly on Wikipedia and any lectures I can find on pre-Islamic Arabia. I like to think I've pieces together a logical and engaging narrative so far. But, as is the cse with these things, more information always helps.
Click to expand...

Sadly I don't. I'm as equally as curious as you are for Madagascar. It's one of the TLs I've been wanting to do, and I know I'll need to check my college library (or if that fails, my city's library for the required books), but that's for a "Madagascar as Siam" sort of thing. I have nothing on Arabia, aside from Wikipedia and what I've gleaned from the archives of threads here, and all I know of the pre-colonial Mascarenes is that the Arabs knew of them (by their toponyms) but did not settle them, although I know the dodo could totally have been domesticated as an ornamental bird since it's so interesting looking and its life cycle seems to be easy to bend to human will.
 

Wendell

DanMcCollum said:
That's, more or less, one of the 'paths' that I was thinking about. How strong do you think this state would be in relation to its neighbors. I also wonder if we would see large scale Arabic settlements in, say, Axum and modern day Somalia.
Click to expand...
It's possible. If I remember correctly, there is a city sacred to Muslims in northern Ethiopia. Maybe an Arab state could emerge there?
 

Arkenfolm

Wendell said:
It's possible. If I remember correctly, there is a city sacred to Muslims in northern Ethiopia. Maybe an Arab state could emerge there?
Click to expand...

That would be Harar. But I wouldn't be surprised if the tradition identifying Harar as sacred emerged centuries later. Plus Harar was pretty important politically as a center of several Muslim powers (Adal Sultanate), albeit Somali/other African Muslims instead of Arabs.
 
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