AHC: post-1942 Luftwaffe 'sanity options'

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Paolo Giusti, Nov 28, 2019.

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  1. Paolo Giusti Kaleckist-leninist

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    Redux edition of this https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/ahc-1935-42-luftwaffe-sanity-options.433685/

    POD: You are at Udet's funeral, 17th of November 1941.
    During the wake, Hitler comes to you and ask "My Luftwaffe has been destroyed but these treacherous Generals! You are my most trusted advisor, you must give me the best solution for our air war problems! Don't care of Goering and Milch, they are a problem of mine!
    General: what is to be done?"
     
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  2. Zheng He Well-Known Member

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    Make peace you fool...
     
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  3. Karelian Well-Known Member

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    I assume we are operating under Nazi terms of sanity here.

    Pilot training needs extensive reforms amd expansion. Mass-production has to focus on engines, to be issued for Italians as well. As for planes: Bf-109, Fw 190 and Ju 88 at the expense of everything else. Focus research funds for night fighters, anti-bomber tactics and heavy AA guns. Replace Stukas with Jabos.
     
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  4. Paolo Giusti Kaleckist-leninist

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    "Well, you fooled me: you are no National Socialist.
    Seargent, take this man and shoot him".

    There were enough avgas?
     
  5. Carl Schwamberger Well-Known Member

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    No, but no use crying about it.

    Pretty much what was done in 1943. Forget the multi engine production. For survival single engine aircraft and pilots are needed.
     
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  6. Paolo Giusti Kaleckist-leninist

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    Uhm...yeah, of course, but...how?
    Do pilots train with gliders?
     
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  7. wiking Well-Known Member

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    Kill Hitler, Goering, and Himmler among others and sue for peace.
     
  8. Paolo Giusti Kaleckist-leninist

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    "You too, my dear? I am surrounded by traitors" [takes MP40 and shoot wiking by himself]
     
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  9. Jukra Well-Known Member

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    Add guided bombs and V-1's to the list.
     
  10. tigercat Well-Known Member

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    You're fighting UK so aerial torpedoes and maritime attack aircraft and Russia so long range bombers
     
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  11. Carl Schwamberger Well-Known Member

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    You ha
    You have to accept they won't match the hours of a yank or RAF rookie. Make the most of the 200 hours you can fuel.

    Reducing twin engine sorties in 1942 spread the fuel out a bit more, & at some point you must accept training trumps operations for fuel priority.
     
  12. tigercat Well-Known Member

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    Diesel engined trainers anyone ? Junkers 86 had diesel engines
     
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  13. Jukra Well-Known Member

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    But, let's twist this around....

    "Mein Führer, the future is with large aircraft with heavy armament. First, we must invest in bombers which can strike against our future enemy, America, and Russia beyond Urals. Like He-177 but with eight engines with two engines in four pods. Meanwhile, all bomber production should be phased out in favor of He-177. It's a promising design and Heinkel can surely do their job."

    "Second, we must invest in rockets which can penetrate any enemy defenses. While A4 is a good start, we need one with longer range and heavier payload, the proposed A9. It's no use having A4 which is essentially only a developmental design."

    "Third, we need heavy fighters with heavy armament to fight enemy bombers and fighters. Single engine fighters don't have sufficient endurance and fighting power. Me-210 is perfect for the job, but it should have heavier guns, maybe even up to 75mm. Actually, when one thinks about it, the ideal mix would be rifle-caliber MG's for rapid fire coupled with heavier cannon, such as 50-75mm for long range, to strike the enemy beyond their reach."

    "Fourth, the war can last for years. We must develop future technologies. Against enemy bombers, we must develop a rapid launched rocket fighter. Erich Bachem might have good ideas. We must also design a jet fighter. Flying wing of Horten offers good capabilities. Though, with rocket engines it might be even more efficient."

    "We must do a radical change and phase out all current designs, now. New production should be distributed to small plants instead of a few large ones. Sure, this will cause minor inconveniences, but within a year Luftwaffe can sweep the skies with Me-210 fighters."

    "Finally, although this touches the Navy, we should have carriers like Americans and the British. We should decommission our battleships and cruisers and convert them to carriers. It will be an easy job."
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
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  14. Jukra Well-Known Member

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    "On operational issues, night fighters are a waste. We must bomb the enemy bomber bases instead."

    "On fuel use, in this war we must train pilots like infantryman, as apprenticeship job. Just complete basic training and send them to units to act as wingmen. Their National Socialist values are superior to our enemies."

    "To destroy RAF morale, let's challenge them over Britain and show them what the National Socialists are worth."

    "In Eastern front, all effort should be spent on close air support to shatter Soviet morale. While bombing logistical nodes might be efficient in terms of statistics, we must strike the Judeo-Bolshevist morale at front lines for maximum moral efficiency to show our Frontkampfern what the Luftwaffe is all about."
     
  15. tomo pauk Well-Known Member

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    I've thought you'd never ask :)

    Roughly this:

    Take out the trash: Me 210 (also kills the 410), Jumo 222, He 177.
    17th Novemeber of 1941 = you are fighting outnumbered, so good stuff is not good enough. Press on with jet-powered aircraft designs, mostly 1-engined fighters and 2- 3- 4- engined bombers, also 2-engined night jet fighters.
    Aircraft are no good if you don't have pilots, and pilots need to be trained. Make 2-seat conversions/versions of the Bf 109 and Fw 190 ASAP. Jet engines can use other fuel than AvGas, another nod to them.
    Until jet-powered aircraft are availaable in good numbers, improve the 'classics'. Bomber force will especially need overhaul, and LR escort needs to be provided. Night fighter force also needs improvement both in quality and quantity.
    Electronics - much better radars, better counter-measures and counter-counter-measures. Also needed for proximity fuses.
    Guided AA missiles.
    Germany provides material for it's allies, so the production needs to be increased as much as possible ASAP.
     
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  16. wiking Well-Known Member

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    That's why you shoot first.
     
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  17. Jukra Well-Known Member

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    "On issue of personnel, I find the lack of will in Luftwaffe disgusting. Every Luftwaffe unit should have a National Socialist guidance officer for better ideological control. Also, cowards and defeatists should be executed to give an example."

    "In general, Mein Führer, we will turn this war situation around in no time by following my advice!"
     
  18. eltf177 Well-Known Member

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    In all seriousness:

    1) More and better-trained pilots. Granted fuel is going to be a problem.
    2) More fuel.
    3) Standardize on a few types, but research and development need to continue.
    4) Try for a knock-out blow on Allied bombers to gain some breathing time.

    Jets cannot get into service much earlier, a month or two earlier possibly but NOT a year earlier. The Me-163 Komet is not really a bomber-killer unless fitted with photo-optic cells which allow 50mm shells mounted in the wingroots to fire directly up into a B-17 or B-24,

    If you have enough well-trained pilots then something like the He-162 Volksjager might help a lot, if quality control can be obtained (hard to do with slave labor).
     
  19. Johnrankins Well-Known Member

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    "Mein Fuhrer, our Luftwaffe field armies must be expanded and field with only the best equipment. The Maus tank is our best bet, don't let those naysayers in the Heer dissuade you. With Maus tanks we will show the Heer what REAL panzer forces look like. We will need that followed by the Ratte ASAP. The Ratte in the hands of us ubermensh will show the Jewish Bolsheviks the real meaning of terror. All AAA should be in the hands of the Luftwaffe at all times and it should be nothing but 88s. Don't let them fool you that a mix would be best, only the biggest is the best. "
     
  20. tomo pauk Well-Known Member

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    Jan 20, 2016
    A bit more details for proposals in the post #15.
    Have DB to make the DB 605 with a big supercharger ASAP - instead of waiting until 1944, it should be available in early 1943 to matter. Big engine + big and efficient supercharger = a lot of power at high altitude, as it was the case with DB 605As and 605D engines. Move on the 2-stage supercharger design, cancel the DB 603.
    Jumo - make a 2-stage version of the Jumo 211 with prop gun facility, the engine already has intercooler (on the 211J version) and low compression ratio to help out with power increase.
    Copy the swril throttle found on the captured Mikulin engines, easy gain of up to 100 HP under rated altitudes.
    BMW - don't wait with improved supercharger for the BMW 801 (in OTL it was developed for the 801E in 1943, and entered service with 801S by late 1944). Gain of 200 HP from SL to 6 km, about 12-13% above that, or 20 km/h on Fw 190A and even more at high altitudes, that can be further improved with better intakes (again a simple OTL solution, that didn't took much traction). No BMW 802 and beyond, use resources to perfect jet engine(s) instead.
    Ship all of the useful tooling from Hispano-Suiza and Gnome & Rhone to Germany/Austria/Bohemia.
     
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