AHC: 1935-42 Luftwaffe 'sanity options'

tomo pauk

Looking around, there seem no recent what-if for Luftwaffe as a whole subject for late 1930s/early 1940s. So here it is - what kind of aircraft and doctrine the Luftwaffe will need to come by, starting from 1935 and still coming strong in 1942. No jets, no guided rockets, no proximity fuses. Guns and engines can differ from OTL, but hopefully will be using the technology of the day.
Suitability for mass production is a major plus. So is using one engine if two engines don't give a meaningful return of the investment, but if 2/3/4-engined job offers a major advantage than press on with that - trained manpower is harder to 'produce' than good aircraft.
Plese note that Flak (from 20mm up) is also mostly prerogative of Luftwaffe (as is whole air defence of the Reich, includes also radars), Heer has just a small percentage of Flak at disposal.
Please note - Wehrmacht is mentaly geared for offensive. Good rules might be 'do no harm' (ie. don'd cancel what worked), and 'take out the trash' (ie. avoid several money holes from OTL). WW2 starts as per OTL, attack vs. West is also on schedual.
 

Deleted member 1487

tomo pauk said:
Heavy AA gun of any type will not improve Luftwaffe's offensive capabilities - LW was part of Wehrmacht.
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Shocking then that they invested so much in heavy AAA through 1942 IOTL.
 
marathag

marathag

Banned
tomo pauk said:
Suitability for mass production is a major plus
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Start producing the Nakajima Ha-5 radial engine to replace the BMW 132.

available in 1933, reliable, and was able to be continually improved in power as time went on, plus easy to mass produce. It's a large displacement engine,
37.5 L or 2,288 cu.in., so not overstressed, runs on low octane gas, but only 200 pounds more weight, and has 200 more HP in 1933 at the start, and able to hit 1500 without any trouble

Use in bombers, transports and attack aircraft.
Fighters too, if feeling cheeky
 

Deleted member 1487

marathag said:
Start producing the Nakajima Ha-5 radial engine to replace the BMW 132.

available in 1933, reliable, and was able to be continually improved in power as time went on, plus easy to mass produce. It's a large displacement engine,
37.5 L or 2,288 cu.in., so not overstressed, runs on low octane gas, but only 200 pounds more weight, and has 200 more HP in 1933 at the start, and able to hit 1500 without any trouble

Use in bombers, transports and attack aircraft.
Fighters too, if feeling cheeky
Click to expand...
Fits a bit of a different role, doesn't it?
 

riggerrob

Lufthansa devotes more R&D to long-range airliners, working out major bugs before LW needs long-range bombers.
LW invests far more in their transport fleets. Ju52 production is fazed out early in favour of 252 with its early tail ramp, while Arado and Gotha build a few large assault gliders, but soon switch to building powered transports with in-flight cargo ramps.
Fallschirmjagers adopt (vertical) harnesses worn by LW aircrew and dangle alpine sacks from lowering lines.
Assault gliders are replaced by helicopters for short-missions and med evac.
Jet engine development is pushed. Turbo shaft engines reduce weight and vibration in helicopters. Hungarian turboprop engines slowly replace piston engines. This gradually increases speeds. Kerosene-burning jets become kin teasingly popular as high octane gasoline supplies dwindle.
Messerschmitt develops the Me109P fighter much earlier. Only a handful of Me110 heavy fighters enter service. Only the prototype Me163 jet interceptor flies. Messerschmitt is told to concentrate on the Me262.
Most other jet fighter prototypes follow the He162 configuration with V-tails.
French and Czech factories convert to building German-designed airplanes, simplifying repairs and the flow of spare parts.
 
Shadow Master

Shadow Master

Banned
I've mentioned this concept before, but why not once again? Looking at the innovative He119 & Dornier Do 335 engine layouts, and then taking a look at the Bf110 & FW 187, I have to wonder if putting both engines within the aircraft's fuselage might not have gotten an aircraft of suitably high instability to make a good fighter aircraft? Historically, the Do 335 was cancelled in early 1940, while the He 119's engine layout was, AFAIK, never attempted for a fighter aircraft. If there were to be an attempt at using the "twin engines side by side within the fuselage" concept, would twin, ring mounted, contra-rotating props and a concentrated, nose mounted armament be superior to more conventional wing mounted armament and engines/props as laid out in the otl He119 pattern? Keep in mind, I'm not proposing that the OTL He119 be taken "as is" and saying make that into a 3 man fighter, but rather that the concept of it's engines being mounted side by side, in a single seat fighter, with a massive fuselage (needed to accommodate the side by side engine layout), internal fuel storage, and perhaps bombs, could be carried? With two engines, but far less drag, would aircraft like these make for a good basis for either fighters and/or light fighter/bombers?
 
marathag

marathag

Banned
Zheng He said:
Two words - drop tanks...
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Thing was, they had them
2_18.jpg
 

gaijin

Banned
wiking said:
Shocking then that they invested so much in heavy AAA through 1942 IOTL.
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Not shocking at all. AAA improves defensive capabilities which is what the Germana needed post 1942. It does little to improve offensive capabilities which is what Tomo Pauk was talking about.
 

thorr97

Banned
The Luftwaffe did about the best it possibly could in OTL. For it to do better in this ATL you'd have to change things to an almost ASB level. Seriously.

In WWII Germany consistently "hit above its weight" in terms of combat effectiveness. This was a combination of excellent training, sufficiently capable (at the least) weaponry, and having the initiative against its enemies. Within a very short period of time however, those initial advantages were gone as its opponents caught up to and surpassed Germany in all aspects of military capability. To have the Luftwaffe do better you'd have to have the Reich do better and / or Germany's opponents do a lot worse.

Germany's economy was limited, was overheated, and was due for imminent collapse by the early 40s - hence Hitler's kicking things off in '39 before that economic collapse happened as such a turn would invalidate the Nazi's legitimacy and claim to power over the German people. In the 30s Germany was expanding its military as fast as it possibly could already. And faster would also hasten that economic collapse. So that's out.

With its limited economy and recognizing that its opponents had superior resource access, industrial capacity, and manpower pools, Germany's planners knew they had to win fast and early if they were to win at all. Hence they structured their military for a quick victory. This wasn't a matter of any lack in foresight but rather the only option they had available. Germany had not the manpower, the industrial base, nor the resources to engage in a war of attrition - like the one they'd just lost in the Great War. So their military had to be all about - and only about - winning a quick and decisive war. That meant an overwhelming emphasis on an overwhelming tactical force - not anything strategic. Fighting a war with "strategic" weapons, circa 1940, meant fighting a war of attrition and that would take so long that Germany would lose.

Devoting resources to four engined strategic bombers was thus a war losing plan. Developing and deploying long range fighter planes was a similar wasted effort as those fighters would be flying tactical ranged missions in support of the Wehrmacht and thus the longer range would be wasted capability. And that'd be capability which took material, production capacity, and manpower to produce - all of which could therefore have been spent on producing more shorter ranged machines.

So, if you're gonna run an ATL here you'll have to take all that into account. Reallocating the resources from one project to another wouldn't be possible if it got in the way of ensuring the Luftwaffe's immediate war winning function. Deploying more heavy AAA, for example, would mean having fewer standard AAA guns available for the front and that would lessen the Wehrmacht's ability to keep Allied airpower of their troops advance thus slowing that advance. And a slower advance would give the Allies more chance to stop the Germans thus turning the war into one of attrition that meant they'd win.

This'll be a difficult one to pull of here.
 

Jukra

Have Göring become truly angry with a naval officer during some duel when he was young. As a result, Kriegsmarine gets less resources during rearming AND Luftwaffe develops naval strike abilities, which is technically quite simple. As a result, in 1940 after Fall of France (did I mention death of butterflies?) the diminished Kriegsmarine with small craft and Luftwaffe with better naval strike abilities is able to destroy UK's maritime trade.
 

ObssesedNuker

Luftwaffe practices for resting and regenerating pilots were abysmal, and ensured a superbly skilled but extremely brittle instrument. As a result, they simply couldn’t regenerate their losses no matter how many planes they built or how much fuel they had.

Fix the training system before anything else. Get experienced pilots off the front and into the schools, and dramatically increase their output.
 

Gudestein

Shadow Master said:
I've mentioned this concept before, but why not once again? Looking at the innovative He119 & Dornier Do 335 engine layouts, and then taking a look at the Bf110 & FW 187, I have to wonder if putting both engines within the aircraft's fuselage might not have gotten an aircraft of suitably high instability to make a good fighter aircraft? Historically, the Do 335 was cancelled in early 1940, while the He 119's engine layout was, AFAIK, never attempted for a fighter aircraft. If there were to be an attempt at using the "twin engines side by side within the fuselage" concept, would twin, ring mounted, contra-rotating props and a concentrated, nose mounted armament be superior to more conventional wing mounted armament and engines/props as laid out in the otl He119 pattern? Keep in mind, I'm not proposing that the OTL He119 be taken "as is" and saying make that into a 3 man fighter, but rather that the concept of it's engines being mounted side by side, in a single seat fighter, with a massive fuselage (needed to accommodate the side by side engine layout), internal fuel storage, and perhaps bombs, could be carried? With two engines, but far less drag, would aircraft like these make for a good basis for either fighters and/or light fighter/bombers?
Click to expand...
He119, Certainly a light bomber, awesome, provided that there are not too serious difficulties. AFAIK these were not that bad and not directly related to the basic layout.
Do335 needed to modify the orientation of the two propellers, so not easy to see when that could hapen.
 

Gudestein

Overall, here is my take.
Fundamentals: Luftwaffe was superb against its intended enemies. They have to consider that the war is longer with a great focus on strategic aviation as well. Not an easy POD to look at in isolation.
1935, job for the Luftwaffe:
Need some early rationalization choices and forced collaboration in the engine Developments. Stick with original request so things get finished (eg. a 2000 hp Jumo 222 is better than a 3000 hp engine in 1948).
The Jet is a future gem. Look at the requirements and stockpile some materials for high temperature alloys! That may be reinforced by the Jumo222 requirements as well.

Protect its skies against the enemies: Me109 and Me110 as day and night fighters are initially well suited. A trimming program of Me110 could have been a better option than OTL Me210.
Dominate the ground fighting air Space: Me-109 is capable, but have insufficient loiter time and poorly handled from forward air fields. He-112 rejected for cost and maintenance, but perhaps support He-100 with a strengthened landing gear. FW-190 goes without saying. FW-187 is the early aircraft of choice unless the cheaper He-100 is nearing production.
Strike installation and logistics in contested air Space: He-111, Ju-88 and Ju-87 is excellent early choices, research into higher performing air craft like He-119 or just JU-288 if the Jumo222 is coming along

Perform close air support: Hs 123 and JU-87 excellent early choices and a streamlined Me110 could be a good one as well. Considering Shadowmasters point above, a reverse He-119 with a twin engine pusher propeller would be an ideal ground attack aircraft with excellent visibility and capable of field heavy cannons in a survivable aircraft. FW-190 goes without saying.

Perform strategic bombing: Difficult, and hard to see it prioritized with a rational Luftwaffe. Certainly dont put anything not-ready in production. The orginal plans for a 4 engine He-277 woud have been the way to go. The high altitude version wuld even be survivable so maybe that is one option. FW-187 is certainly an option as well to help them get home.

Transport: Ju52, make lots, but phase them out for modern transport. Call for a robust, easy loading plane. If something like Ar232 is offered, jump on it.

Naval aviation: I did a thread recently around this and the Do-26. Maybe some planes with a non-modified Jumo224...The materials stockpiling could materialize into lighter engines as well.

Building up all of this is off course no easy feat and wouldn't all be in place in 1939. However, loosing fewer aircraft is a good way of saving resources and pilots.
 

Gudestein

ObssesedNuker said:
Luftwaffe practices for resting and regenerating pilots were abysmal, and ensured a superbly skilled but extremely brittle instrument. As a result, they simply couldn’t regenerate their losses no matter how many planes they built or how much fuel they had.

Fix the training system before anything else. Get experienced pilots off the front and into the schools, and dramatically increase their output.
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That as well.
 
Michel Van

Michel Van

First: Get rid of Herman Göring
Second: Get rid of Ernst Udet

Most Problems of Reichsluftfahrtministerium are to blame those two
Göring complet incompetency in everything he does
Uder brainless idea that EVERY bomber needed to be a Dive bomber,
What let to very problematic Projects like useless Heinkel He 177 „Greif“ and the lack of Heavy bombers of Luftwaffe during the War

For rest is quite good what RLM had planned in 1930s and 1940s
Include a working Heavy Bomber like Heinkel He 277 or Junkers Ju 488 and Messerschmitt Me 264
and Better Logistic for Aircraft maintenance and Pilot education would very helpful !
 
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