AHC: Orthodox-phobia instead of Islamophobia

[Incognito]

Seriously? Four pages of discussion and no one brought up this man:

Come on people! They even made a song about him!

In a world where Russian Empire survives by staying out of WW1 as some here have suggested, Rasputin would still be suspected as the power behind the throne as long as Alexi lives. Maybe if Alexi lives into adulthood Rasputin could even be rewarded with a high position in the Russian Orthodox Church? (Not sure how likely that is though.)

Whatever the case, with Rasputin not dying in 1916 and down the line Russia being viewed as potential threat by the west I can see all sorts of rumors and conspiracy-theories arising around Rasputin and the Russian Church, ranging from something like the “Protocols of Zion” to “Orthodoxy is a Siberian Pagan religion” and everything in-between.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Could Orthodoxy become more popular in Asia enough to have Orthodox-phobia take root there?

 

[RGB]

Could Orthodoxy become more popular in Asia enough to have Orthodox-phobia take root there?

It could, I think, with enough Russian economic/political domination (difficult in itself but let's handwave it). Think today's South Korea and its hugely successful Evangelical missionary activity, multiply it by ALL of Korea/China under Russian domination. Even reaching say 10-15% would look overwhelming in total numbers to any outside observers. Reaching higher would provoke strong reaction.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

That could easily be done with Russian economical concessions in China, Korea and Japan. Although penetrating India would be a lot harder.

 

[Incognito]

You know, I have been reading a little about Leonid Donatovich Simonovich-Niksic (sadly for those of eanglishspeakers amongst you, he only has a Russian wiki page) and his organisation, Союз Православных Хоругвеносцев (Union of Orthodox Cross Bearers). In a nut shell, Simonovich-Niksich is Orthodox priest of Russo-Serbian ancestry who in 1992 founded the "Union of Orthodox Cross Bearers" - an organisation that is aimed at promoting Orthodoxy & Russia nationalism, return to absolute monarchy and "reawakening" of Russian patriotism throughout the territories of the former Russian Empire. One of the group's slogans, "Orthodoxy or Death!" has been ruled by Russian court to be promoting religous extremism (what? what gave the courts that idea? )

Group has participated in protests against gays, book buringing, nationalist rallies, etc. One website claimed that there are rumores that Simonovich-Niksic used the group to recrut Russian volunteer fighters to aid the Serbs during the Balkans Wars but I did not find any citations fro that.

Anyway, as we all probably know apperance and first impressions are everything. And it got me thinking: is there any way to have West's first impression of post-Communist Russia and Russian immigrants changed from sleazy mobsters...

...to something like this:

Russians seen as Orthodox-fundamentalist Neo-Nazis with "Orthodoxy or Death" written on their shirts? Would that be enough to cause immigrant-related Orthodox-phobia in the West?

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

It would only affect areas that are close to Russia. I guess the group would actually be like the post-Soviet version of the Black Hundreds.

 

[BBadolato]

Maybe a terrorist group based off the Iron Guards of Romania could be a better substitute, because a bunch of guys who dress like bikers and neo-nazis don't seem all that intimidating. Although wouldn't you have to make relations more strained between Orthodox and Catholics/Protestants? Lets say either The Byzantine Empire never falls and holds on to Greece and Anatolia or a few Orthodox successor states take it's place. if there is no threat of an Islamic power, could that void be filled by fear of Orthodox countries.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Or what if the rapproachment between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches never happened in 1965? The rapproachment that ended the Great Schism.

 

[Lost the game]

You know, I have been reading a little about Leonid Donatovich Simonovich-Niksic (sadly for those of eanglishspeakers amongst you, he only has a Russian wiki page) and his organisation, Союз Православных Хоругвеносцев (Union of Orthodox Cross Bearers). In a nut shell, Simonovich-Niksich is Orthodox priest of Russo-Serbian ancestry who in 1992 founded the "Union of Orthodox Cross Bearers" - an organisation that is aimed at promoting Orthodoxy & Russia nationalism, return to absolute monarchy and "reawakening" of Russian patriotism throughout the territories of the former Russian Empire. One of the group's slogans, "Orthodoxy or Death!" has been ruled by Russian court to be promoting religous extremism (what? what gave the courts that idea? )

Group has participated in protests against gays, book buringing, nationalist rallies, etc. One website claimed that there are rumores that Simonovich-Niksic used the group to recrut Russian volunteer fighters to aid the Serbs during the Balkans Wars but I did not find any citations fro that.

Anyway, as we all probably know apperance and first impressions are everything. And it got me thinking: is there any way to have West's first impression of post-Communist Russia and Russian immigrants changed from sleazy mobsters...


...to something like this:



Russians seen as Orthodox-fundamentalist Neo-Nazis with "Orthodoxy or Death" written on their shirts? Would that be enough to cause immigrant-related Orthodox-phobia in the West?

The one picture makes them look like a cross between the Death Eaters and the KKK. Therefore one could reasonably expect them to plant burning orthodox crosses on the lawns of Muslims in Russia, and that Gospodin Simonovich-Niksic's nose will soon disappear and his will skin turn paper-white as he searches for a certain Garri Iakovovich as said boy seeks to destroy Simonovich-Niksic's Horcruxes

 

[Incognito]

It would only affect areas that are close to Russia.

I don't know about that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a (mild compared to Islam-scare) "Eastern Europeans Immigrants Will Take Over!!!" scare in the Western World in OTL 1990s back when post-Communists states experienced greatest population drain? Now imagine a world where you have same immigration rates plus well-know Orthodox fundamentalist group(s) in Eastern Europe...

I guess the group would actually be like the post-Soviet version of the Black Hundreds.

That seems like a very apt way of describing them...

...a bunch of guys who dress like bikers and neo-nazis don't seem all that intimidating.

Really? I would disagree.

OTL there are people who find individuals like the guy below intimidating/a threat:

And he seems far less scary than a bunch of large bikers with nationalistic beliefs.

Plus I do not know about you but to me, as much as I hate to admit it, the Union of Orthodox Cross Bearers's SS-esque, Cossack-esque uniforms look rather bad-@$$.

The one picture makes them look like a cross between the Death Eaters and the KKK. Therefore one could reasonably expect them to plant burning orthodox crosses on the lawns of Muslims in Russia, and that Gospodin Simonovich-Niksic's nose will soon disappear and his will skin turn paper-white as he searches for a certain Garri Iakovovich as said boy seeks to destroy Simonovich-Niksic's Horcruxes

Funny you should say that. Remember those book-burnings I mentioned earlier? Guess which book written by British author J. K. Rowling did the Cross Bearers burn for being “satanic”?

 

[Incognito]

Here is another odd thought I had: is there any way for Tolstoyism to mutate into something akin to Salafism/Wahhabism and become just as infamous in the Western World?

 

[sullafelix]

POD 16th century

Counter-Reformation leads to a rapprochement between Catholic and Orthodox, followed by crusades to liberate Constantinople and the East. This takes centuries but it is accomplished. Meanwhile, Protestants have established essentially the strongholds they have now, to include North America. Wars of Spanish Succession are diminished in import or don't happen at all. Rather, a reinvigorated Church establishes a new and improved Holy Roman Empire. Islam, meanwhile, enters an apparently terminal decline as their ancient strongholds are colonized. Modern ideas of political liberty are stillborn but religious liberty is a burning issue in every country, but especially in the Protestant World.

 

[Xachiavelli]

IMHO Russia achieving their age-old goal of capturing Constantinople might help. All in all, some kind of Russia wank is a pretty good way of achieving this.

If you could somehow have Russia do a lot better in WW1 and end up capturing OTL Turkey, that would help. Also having a Russian Jerusalem would help to no end, but that's harder.

I should add that something along these lines is happening in OTL Britain. It's not about religious differences however, it's just a "Bloody Eastern Europeans stealing our jobs" kinda thing, most people over here who hate the Eastern Europeans don't even know what Orthodoxy is

 

[Bergil]

Christian Socialist USSR? Might even be able to get Rasputin involved, as has been previously suggested.

 

[Kishan]

Okay, here's a thought. Probably somewhat implausible, though, and requires a pre-1900 POD.

- In one of her 19th century wars against the Turks, Russia is able to triumph. Constantinople is captured, and a ring of vassal states are set up around the Balkans and Black Sea. Greece is granted swathes of extra territory and becomes a Russian vassal. Russia gains a warm water port, and Constantinople is set up as a "free city".

- A Great War of a sort breaks out, in which Russia is on the winning side, and takes the opportunity to directly annex several of its Balkan vassals, as well as expanding its territory in Pontic Anatolia and the Caucasus. Orthodoxy comes to be used as the glue to bind this wanked Russian Empire together.

- Socialist revolutions break out and succeed in several Western European nations. Though the ensuing dictatorships don't last forever, they do heavily weaken any sort of remaining Christian influence on Western Europe. Elements of colonial administrations remain in place in some colonies, ruling Apartheid style states that sometimes begin to resemble an "Angrezi Raj".

- By 2012, Russia is the most powerful nation on Earth, and greedily eyes territories in Western Europe and central Asia. Russian missionary activity is proving to be hugely successful in China, and Orthodoxy is on the rise everywhere. Constantinople becomes a city of the Patriarch, himself a puppet of the Russian-Greek alliance. The Patriarchate increasingly becomes a mouthpiece for Russian propaganda about her destiny of global dominion.

- The rest of the world cowers in terror.

For Orthodox phobia to take root in place of Islamophobia, a situation similar to the one described by Basileus Giorgius is necessary. Here the POD is pre-1900, the Russian Revolution, the Soviet Union, the Cold War etc. are all butterflied away and the Russian Empire under Tsar still exists.

What about a much later POD, say around 1990, at the time of the collapse of the Soviet Union. An Iran model Orthodox( in place of Islamic) Revolution takes place in Russia, and Yeltsin get no chance to grab power from Gorbachev as in OTL, but is thrown out along with him. A charismatic Orthodox priest similar to Ayatollah Khomeini leads the Orthodox uprising and captures power as in Iran. A constitution similar to that of Iran, making the Russian Patriarch, the Supreme Leader is put in place. The new regime advocates Orthodox fundamentalism, challenging the West and calling others to convert to their brand of Orthodoxy or else! A mega Iran armed to the teeth with nukes! It could provide a realistic reason for the growth of Orthodox phobia.

 

[whitecrow]

It’s not a necro if I have something to add to the topic…

An idea that popped into my head sometime ago – could Tolstoyism spread more and mutate into something violent? “You follow my version of “pure” Christianity – or else!” type deal? Like how fundamental Muslims want to enforce strict punishments for consuming alcohol or dressing indiscreetly, radical Tolstoyans could have similar hang-ups about those things too (as well as smoking and eating meat).

The biggest hurdle, of course, is that original Tolstoyism is all about non-violence. But hey, when have original teachings prevented @$$holes from subverting them to their own violent ends, right?

 

[Will Kürlich Kerl]

I think you'd have to remove the Soviet Union, or at least the agressively Atheist part of it, for this to happen. It's just too much of a swing to go from seeing the Russians and eastern Europe as 'Godless Communists blowing up churches' to 'mad orthodox extremists trying to convert everyone' so quickly.

Well, in 1917 the October Revolution never happens. The Cold War is between the United States and an ultranationalist Panslavist Orthodox Russia.

 

[whitecrow]

An idea that popped into my head sometime ago – could Tolstoyism spread more and mutate into something violent? “You follow my version of “pure” Christianity – or else!” type deal? Like how fundamental Muslims want to enforce strict punishments for consuming alcohol or dressing indiscreetly, radical Tolstoyans could have similar hang-ups about those things too (as well as smoking and eating meat).

The biggest hurdle, of course, is that original Tolstoyism is all about non-violence. But hey, when have original teachings prevented @$$holes from subverting them to their own violent ends, right?

So what are everyone's thoughts on this? is it plausible in any way or no?

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

The only thing I have in mind is: who is the nutjob qualified to hijack the movement?