AHC: Orthodox-phobia instead of Islamophobia

[King Gorilla]

You get Slavophobia not fear of the Orthodox Church. What you need is a violent, fanatical, expansionistic Orthodox Church . The best way I can think of is some sort of Theocratic Russia but a monarchy more dependent on the church might get you close enough.

I still think a major Russian defeat, and governmental collapse is needed in-order to put said scenario into place. World War I provides a convenient solution to bring this about.

Also I have a hard time ever seeing slavophobia not being linked to the "Orthodox" menace by simple virtue of most orthodox Christians being Slavic.

 

[Alex Richards]

I still think a major Russian defeat, and governmental collapse is needed in-order to put said scenario into place. World War I provides a convenient solution to bring this about.

Also I have a hard time ever seeing slavophobia not being linked to the "Orthodox" menace by simple virtue of most orthodox Christians being Slavic.

Most Slavophobia is going to originate, or at least be strongest, in Germany, Austria and Italy (the front line so to speak) with a second bit in Finland. Problem is for Finland it's basically Russophobia, and for the others their Slavic neighbours are the Catholic Poles, Slovaks, Slovenes or Croats.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

For Italy, their fears would be Croats and Slovenes, which is why Mussolini was eager to Romanize them. For Austria, hatred of Serbs goes back to Gavrilo Princip's assassination of Franz Ferdinand, and for Germany, the struggle for land against the Poles and to a lesser extent, the Russians. (If you counted the failed Teutonic invasion of Pskov as the German conflict against the Rus') Hungary's Slavophobia would be the Slovaks, while Albania's Slavophobia would also be the Serbs.

 

[Basileus Giorgios]

Okay, here's a thought. Probably somewhat implausible, though, and requires a pre-1900 POD.

- In one of her 19th century wars against the Turks, Russia is able to triumph. Constantinople is captured, and a ring of vassal states are set up around the Balkans and Black Sea. Greece is granted swathes of extra territory and becomes a Russian vassal. Russia gains a warm water port, and Constantinople is set up as a "free city".

- A Great War of a sort breaks out, in which Russia is on the winning side, and takes the opportunity to directly annex several of its Balkan vassals, as well as expanding its territory in Pontic Anatolia and the Caucasus. Orthodoxy comes to be used as the glue to bind this wanked Russian Empire together.

- Socialist revolutions break out and succeed in several Western European nations. Though the ensuing dictatorships don't last forever, they do heavily weaken any sort of remaining Christian influence on Western Europe. Elements of colonial administrations remain in place in some colonies, ruling Apartheid style states that sometimes begin to resemble an "Angrezi Raj".

- By 2012, Russia is the most powerful nation on Earth, and greedily eyes territories in Western Europe and central Asia. Russian missionary activity is proving to be hugely successful in China, and Orthodoxy is on the rise everywhere. Constantinople becomes a city of the Patriarch, himself a puppet of the Russian-Greek alliance. The Patriarchate increasingly becomes a mouthpiece for Russian propaganda about her destiny of global dominion.

- The rest of the world cowers in terror.

 

[King Gorilla]

Okay, here's a thought. Probably somewhat implausible, though, and requires a pre-1900 POD.

Throw in an expansionist Ethiopian client state as well.

 

[Snake Featherston]

It's possible to have something like my Up With the Star scenario where Russia's initiating serious military and logistics reform from the 1870s onward leads it to a Fascist regime that's more tolerant of religion than the OTL version (because this is Russia and the Orthodox Church is already an arm of the state anyhow), which leads to a conflation of Orthodoxophobia with Russophobia. In a post-1900 context, it's almost impossible to avert the end of Tsarism which means that Orthoxophobia is unlikely to be the Boogeyman.

 

[Johnrankins]

It's possible to have something like my Up With the Star scenario where Russia's initiating serious military and logistics reform from the 1870s onward leads it to a Fascist regime that's more tolerant of religion than the OTL version (because this is Russia and the Orthodox Church is already an arm of the state anyhow), which leads to a conflation of Orthodoxophobia with Russophobia. In a post-1900 context, it's almost impossible to avert the end of Tsarism which means that Orthoxophobia is unlikely to be the Boogeyman.

It is not impossible except in the narrow sense that Tsarism can't survive unchanged. A move to strengthen it by encouraging a religious revival among the Orthodox might work and that is the best way to get the result wanted IMO. Most of these suggestions result only in Slavophobia not fear of the Orthodox Church which are two different but related things. The first would be a fear of the Slavic people's gathering together and ruling the world through military might. The second is the fear that the Orthodox Church would go on a crusading mission to convert others to their faith. The first implies only a submission to power the other implies a threat to faith.

 

[Snake Featherston]

It is not impossible except in the narrow sense that Tsarism can't survive unchanged. A move to strengthen it by encouraging a religious revival among the Orthodox might work and that is the best way to get the result wanted IMO. Most of these suggestions result only in Slavophobia not fear of the Orthodox Church which are two different but related things. The first would be a fear of the Slavic people's gathering together and ruling the world through military might. The second is the fear that the Orthodox Church would go on a crusading mission to convert others to their faith. The first implies only a submission to power the other implies a threat to faith.

Well, given the ATL Russia uses the Orthodox Church as a religious version of the Comintern.......

 

[Johnrankins]

Well, given the ATL Russia uses the Orthodox Church as a religious version of the Comintern.......

Exactly, which is what we want.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

One way to do that would be to use the Russian community overseas for missionary work.

 

[King Gorilla]

Exactly, which is what we want.

So Russia, Romania, Greater Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia, Greater Armenia, Ethiopia as well as puppet regimes central asia, the middle east and Manchuria?

 

[Johnrankins]

So Russia, Romania, Greater Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia, Greater Armenia, Ethiopia as well as puppet regimes central asia, the middle east and Manchuria?

Sounds good, that would look quite threatening.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

The main problem with rampant forced conversion into Orthodoxy in Russia is that there are a lot of non-Christians living within Russian territory. Even the Imperial Russian Army wasn't able to subdue the Muslim Caucasian tribes.

 

[Johnrankins]

The main problem with rampant forced conversion into Orthodoxy in Russia is that there are a lot of non-Christians living within Russian territory. Even the Imperial Russian Army wasn't able to subdue the Muslim Caucasian tribes.

So round everyone up and send them to Siberia.

 

[B_Munro]

I'm not sure what MoTF would that be?

You're probably thinking of this one by tormsen: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=5720416&highlight=tormsen:#post5720416

Bruce

 

[B_Munro]

The main problem with rampant forced conversion into Orthodoxy in Russia is that there are a lot of non-Christians living within Russian territory. Even the Imperial Russian Army wasn't able to subdue the Muslim Caucasian tribes.

Hm? They did, it just took decades of fighting. OTOH, if there's forced conversion as well, things get even hairier.

Mass expulsions/mass murder of Muslims - well, that certainly is going to burnish their Evil Empire image. One suspects being Jewish won't get any easier, either...

Bruce

 

[King Gorilla]

Hm? They did, it just took decades of fighting. OTOH, if there's forced conversion as well, things get even hairier.

Mass expulsions/mass murder of Muslims - well, that certainly is going to burnish their Evil Empire image. One suspects being Jewish won't get any easier, either...

Bruce

For that matter polish catholic.

 

[Constantinople]

You're probably thinking of this one by tormsen: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=5720416&highlight=tormsen:#post5720416

Bruce

That's right, that's the one.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Uniates in the Ukraine would be migrating in droves at the presence of an ultranationalist Orthodox Christian Russian Empire since the Orthodox clergy would have seen Uniates as Catholics posing as Orthodox Christians.

 

[B_Munro]

Of course, the problem with this scenario

- In one of her 19th century wars against the Turks, Russia is able to triumph. Constantinople is captured, and a ring of vassal states are set up around the Balkans and Black Sea. Greece is granted swathes of extra territory and becomes a Russian vassal. Russia gains a warm water port, and Constantinople is set up as a "free city".
.

is that it is hard to see the British standing for it: the Crimean War was after all about not letting the Russians get a stranglehold on Constantinople. And the Austrians, which stayed neutral in that fight, presumeably would not be happy about the countries to the S and E (Romania, Bulgaria, Greece...) becoming outright vassals of Russia.

Bruce