AHC: Orthodox-phobia instead of Islamophobia

No. They are just numbers. If an alien came to earth would see that the most hated religious group is christianity. And it does not have to do just with colonialism.

Do you consider a threat to progress the implantation of sharia or not? There are groups in Denmark, United Kingdom, Netherlands and Spain that claim for the implantation of Sharia. Just check the news.

As I said my possition is not politically correct, but it cannot be denied. Of course there are also muslim pursued by their faith in China (and they would be also in North Korea or in Belarus), but that does not change my point. What is the situation of the coptish community in Egypt (that does not have to do with colonialism, they were there before the muslims)? Is is possible to practice another religion than islam in Saudi Arabia? What is the situation of converts to Christian Churches in Iran? What do you think of the blasphemy laws in Pakistan?

Compared to that the "theory" that in one century there will be progroms against muslims in Europe is a joke.

Au contraire, it have to do with it. Starting with Crusades.

I am opposed to Shariah, DUH. But I am also opposed to anti-muslim laws.

It is not just un-PC, but again, you show an inability to discernate between radical fanatics - like the ones in christianity as well, and the random joe who can be actually liberal and peacefull. And the idea that the Shariah is even popular in muslims... It just needs politicians and jusrists to stand up to stop the ,dangerous lethal muslim' threat, it 's a joke overblown from the far-right. The real menace come from the local far-right. secular or christian (or jewish in Israel).

Europe and NA and such where this way not so long ago in history. And Japan toward Christians as well, centuries ago.

It is ONLY because of laicity and and all, FOUGHT AGAINST RADICAL CHRISTIANS FOR NTHIS, that we are different.

It is clear that with the rise of a new racism, YES, there will be one day pogroms against muslim peoples. The rise of far-right in europe, by example, is a dangerous sign... THIS is the real threat to our liberty - the native far-right, using the muslims and other immigrants and 'indesirables' to establish power.
 
Au contraire, it have to do with it. Starting with Crusades.
No, it does not have to do with colonialism. It would have if we were talking a country that suffered from a colonialism that tried to impose a religion with a minority that converted during that period. Another thing is that if you used past actions (even actions in remote past as the crusades) to justify anything (for instance: italian tourists attacked in Spain because of the destruction of Numantia).

I am opposed to Shariah, DUH. But I am also opposed to anti-muslim laws.
What anti-muslim laws? The only ones I can think are the mosque limitation in Switzerland... oh wait! Polygamy is not accepted, ablation is also prosecuted, limitations on attire in France in Schools, the prohibition of appearing in documentation with burka...

Compared with anti-blasphemy laws and anti-apostasy laws, how would you say they would be? Worse? Far Worse? Unbearable?
It is not just un-PC, but again, you show an inability to discernate between radical fanatics - like the ones in christianity as well, and the random joe who can be actually liberal and peacefull. And the idea that the Shariah is even popular in muslims... It just needs politicians and jusrists to stand up to stop the ,dangerous lethal muslim' threat, it 's a joke overblown from the far-right. The real menace come from the local far-right. secular or christian (or jewish in Israel).
The real menace? Tell me how many muslims have far-right groups killed in Western Europe, the Americas and Israel? I am talking of a matter of numbers. Where do muslims have more rights in Israel or in Palestine?

Europe and NA and such where this way not so long ago in history. And Japan toward Christians as well, centuries ago.
And? What do they do NOW?

It is ONLY because of laicity and and all, FOUGHT AGAINST RADICAL CHRISTIANS FOR NTHIS, that we are different.

It is clear that with the rise of a new racism, YES, there will be one day pogroms against muslim peoples. The rise of far-right in europe, by example, is a dangerous sign... THIS is the real threat to our liberty - the native far-right, using the muslims and other immigrants and 'indesirables' to establish power.
I am sorry, but I do not see your point. I talk of TODAY. Not about ideas about distopic futures dominated by far-right or islamic power. I am talking about where people are prosecuted or killed by their religious beliefs.
 

whitecrow

Banned
I know this is not a politically correct question (but I do not mind about it), but what do you understand by Islamophobia?
What do I mean by 'Islamophobia'? I mean this:

Do you know that many, MANY rightwingers point at muslims as a "menace"? Do you know the rising racist fear against the muslim peoples, painted as treath to progress and all?
Replace the word "Muslim" with "Orthodox Chritian" and you will see the type of scenario the OP is asking for.
 

Hkelukka

Banned
I am sorry, but I do not see your point. I talk of TODAY. Not about ideas about distopic futures dominated by far-right or islamic power. I am talking about where people are prosecuted or killed by their religious beliefs.

Everyone kills for their beliefs or religions when its their turn. I'm not arguing about what happened when, i'm arguing about whats happening now. From my present day observation the top 3 causes of death in the world are Poor Nutrition/Water, Too much labour (slavery for many) and Monotheism. Of the 3 branches of monotheism, Christianity is the funniest with its Palins and Mormons. Judaism has the sterotype of being for two kinds of people, Comedians and Scientists/Bankers. And Islam, well... I'll just say that the image of Islam in the west is both exaggerated and correct.

If you want a Islam thats viewed with more than just anthropological curiosity and outright hostility in Europe, have 1 succesful secular peaceful muslim Majority state, that isnt constantly being overthrown by its military, thats managed to go without a single genocide and is large enough to be counted as a "nation" not just "trade-port". Thats going to be a tough look:

Of the top 10 Muslim majority countries: % is muslim pop
Indonesia has none 88%
Pakistan is Islamic 94%
Nigeria is Secular 47% (50.4% according to the higher estimate)
Bangladesh is state religion 90%
Eqypt is state religion 94%
Iran is Islamic 99%
Turkey is Secular 98%
Sudan has none 71%
Algeria is state 99%
Morocco is state 99%

All states with 90% or above muslim population are islamic or state religion with the exception of Turkey that fails the other test for having a tendency to genocide its population and have the military overthrow the government.

The 2 with no religion are under 90%

And Nigeria is borderline muslim since its about 50%

Of those we have:
4 with a state religion (islam)
2 with a islamic state with varying forms of sharia
2 with no religion
2 with secular

All the high percentage muslim majority countries are either sharia, or state religion, and none of the top 10 Islamic countries would qualify for the UN if we upheld what was actually in it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2011_Freedom_House_world_map.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Electoral_democracies.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Democracy_Index_2010.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_state_religions.png

Closest to get to Western standards are Malaysia and Indonesia. Of the major countries. The next major country is Pakistan but less said about Pakistan the better. And Indonesia has the GDP capita of 4744$ and Malaysias is 15.385$ So the 2 of the best muslim states in the world are able to produce the GDP/capitals below those of say, Estonia with its 19.375. A hellhole like Saudi-Arabia or one of the oil countries may produce a higher GDP/capita but without the human rights neccesary to enjoy that wealth, there is no point in it. So. In short. Islam seems to produce poverty, massive population growth, conflict, illiteracy and prejudice towards other religions. If that changes, i'll change my opinion of Islam.

My basis for it is in this post, which I feel conforms to the norms of the Forum. Though, I've been wrong before.

If you want people to stop viewing islam with the same sense of "Phobia" that they feared other "Phobias", you need to change the core of the "Phobia".

That happens by reforming Islam. And that happens, if we are lucky, with the revolutions in the middle east, but I doubt it. Until that I call ASB on the OP unless you want to fundementally change either Jesus or Mohammed as a person.

But other than that I'll leave it at this. I feel I have adequately responded to the OP within the bounds of the forum rules.
 

whitecrow

Banned
You are not serious, are you?

Until that I call ASB on the OP unless you want to fundementally change either Jesus or Mohammed as a person.
Why ASB? Using your own type of analysis, I can point to former Warsaw Pact members, Greece and Ethiopia and say "See? Orthodoxy causes autocracy, poverty, and genocide". I could even point out how Assad put Christians from Orthodox sects in positions of power in Syria and look how well THAT turned out :rolleyes:.
 

Hkelukka

Banned
Why ASB? Using your own type of analysis, I can point to former Warsaw Pact members, Greece and Ethiopia and say "See? Orthodoxy causes autocracy, poverty, and genocide". I could even point out how Assad put Christians from Orthodox sects in positions of power in Syria and look how well THAT turned out :rolleyes:.

Warsaw pact wasnt orthodox anymore that the Axis powers were protestant.

Ethiopia was the last African nation to be conquered by the West.

Greece a higher HDI than any Muslim majority state save for those with very small populations which significantly distort the HDI and GDP/capita than any Muslim majority state save for those with huge oil reserves.

So yes, I would say that your 3 points prove that Orthodox Christianity has a higher rate of producing succesful outcomes than other state legal theories debated in this topic.

EDIT: I call ASB because Orth-Christ doesnt have the sheer force of numbers neccesary for the western civilizations need to scream "look, the orc hordes are here". Its a matter of the lebensraum. russia has it, The middle east doesnt have it. =)
 

whitecrow

Banned
Warsaw pact wasnt orthodox anymore that the Axis powers were protestant.
20 years after WW2 the former Axis became thriving democracies. 20 years after the fall of Communism Easter Europe is still trying to gets its act together. The only places doing OK for themselves are Catholic Poland and Protestant Baltic States. Clearly Orthodoxy causes economic problems and corruption, right?
Ethiopia was the last African nation to be conquered by the West.
So? It had legalized slavery up until Catholic Italians invaded the country and set them straight. After the Italians left the country suffered economic issues, political turmoil and mass starvation. How can you deny that this is all the result of Orthodoxy?
Greece a higher HDI than any Muslim majority state save for those with very small populations which significantly distort the HDI and GDP/capita than any Muslim majority state save for those with huge oil reserves.
So? Not all the Muslim countries in your examples did not fit all three criteria at the same time either. Besides, Greece is a rather shoddy place to live compared to its Catholic and Protestant European neighbors.
EDIT: I call ASB because Orth-Christ doesnt have the sheer force of numbers neccesary for the western civilizations need to scream "look, the orc hordes are here". Its a matter of the lebensraum. russia has it, The middle east doesnt have it. =)

The only sensible thing you said so far. If population is the problem, find a way to increase it. Several people already gave scenarios where the Orthodox population could be much bigger.
 

Ian the Admin

Administrator
Donor
So. In short. Islam seems to produce poverty, massive population growth, conflict, illiteracy and prejudice towards other religions. If that changes, i'll change my opinion of Islam.

My basis for it is in this post, which I feel conforms to the norms of the Forum. Though, I've been wrong before.

Banned .
 

Esopo

Banned
It is clear that with the rise of a new racism, YES, there will be one day pogroms against muslim peoples. The rise of far-right in europe, by example, is a dangerous sign... THIS is the real threat to our liberty - the native far-right, using the muslims and other immigrants and 'indesirables' to establish power.

the european far right is not a more dangerous menace than muslims radicals. Both are phenomenon exagerated by media. And no, in europe there wont be pogroms. It seems in america you have a twisted image of europe.
 
the european far right is not a more dangerous menace than muslims radicals. Both are phenomenon exagerated by media. And no, in europe there wont be pogroms. It seems in america you have a twisted image of europe.

I live in Canada.

And there is a rise of a far right in Europe, it's clear and disturbing. AS WELL as all over occident frankly - guys like Santorum, if it is not a radical right, well..
 

Esopo

Banned
I live in Canada.

And there is a rise of a far right in Europe, it's clear and disturbing. AS WELL as all over occident frankly - guys like Santorum, if it is not a radical right, well..

the rise of the xenophobic right in 60's britain didnt turn britain in tzarist russia with its pogroms and wont do it for europe.
 
I live in Canada.

And there is a rise of a far right in Europe, it's clear and disturbing. AS WELL as all over occident frankly - guys like Santorum, if it is not a radical right, well..

Although I do not live in Canada (I live in Europe) I think the rise of far right in Europe in exagerated by the media. In Spain, for instance, they do not have parliamentary representation (unless you consider PNV's points of view as xenophobic, but they do not consider religion and the other nationalist parties with paliamentary representation do not have xenophobic issues).

But my point still is unanswered, why do we speak of Islamophobia instead of Christophobia? If we look in Google for Islamophobia, we get 389.000 results. But if we look for Christophobia we get 5.560 results (if we use Christianophobia we get some additional 13.900 results).

If you consider Islamophobia as:

"Do you know that many, MANY rightwingers point at muslims as a "menace"? Do you know the rising racist fear against the muslim peoples, painted as treath to progress and all? "

How do you call this?
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/religious_terror_as_muslim_sect_qerwQfz2oNuUGQLlPpGF8H
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...Coptic-Christians-protest-church-attacks.html
http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/09/30/iran-christian-pastor-faces-execution-apostasy
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...ic-of-blasphemy-law-is-shot-dead-in-pakistan/
http://www.christianpost.com/news/s...faces-death-penalty-under-apostasy-law-49632/
http://midnightwatcher.wordpress.co...en-to-kill-him-if-he-refuses-to-accept-islam/
http://jceworld.blogspot.com.es/2012/03/asia-india-attacks-on-3-christian.html

Probably they were not pointed as a "menace", there was no fear to their rising power nor they were seen as a threat as progress. They were just killed.
 

Esopo

Banned
But my point still is unanswered, why do we speak of Islamophobia instead of Christophobia? If we look in Google for Islamophobia, we get 389.000 results. But if we look for Christophobia we get 5.560 results (if we use Christianophobia we get some additional 13.900 results).

because our point of view is the western one. In the west christianity is the ruling force and islam somehwat considered bad (even if i dont agree about islamophobia being such an issue).
 
because our point of view is the western one. In the west christianity is the ruling force and islam somehwat considered bad (even if i dont agree about islamophobia being such an issue).

If that was true I would have found 300.000 entries concerning Christophoby and 20.000 concerning Islamophoby, not the other way round.
 

The sad thing is, TBH, I actually found myself agreeing with him on one thing: there does need to be some serious reform within the Islamic religious community(I feel that many of the Christian churches should do the same as well). :(
However, though, please note that I am not making an excuse for his bigotry(quite frankly, I am as repulsed by Islamophobia as I would, say, Judeophobia) and frankly, Ian, I think you made the right call by banning him.
 
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whitecrow

Banned
no, because our perception is the one of a strong christianity and a discriminate islam.

Plus he may simply be using the wrong search terms. Searching "fear of Christianity phobia" on google gives much more hits than Christophoby. Anyway, this topic is not meant to discuss whether OTL is Islamophobic or Christianophobic. It is meant to find scenarios in which Orthodox-phobia is as wide-spread as OTL Islamophobia.
 
Not sure what the reaction of the Old Believers would be in response to Orthodox-phobia, as well as Western Rite Orthodox Christians. (Uniates who are in communion with the Russian Orthodox Church but maintain their Western Rites-ie: Anglican or Protestant Rite)

The Old Believers would find it nothing new, because they already view the ROC as essentially being the spawn of the Antichrist for embracing the Nikonian reforms - which do have some justice, as the Old Believers preserve a much older rite of Orthodox Christianity than the modern ROC. The views of the Old Believers would just become more open and accessible to the wider world. ;)
 
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