Maybe Muslims as well as Jews emigrate to the US in large numbers in TTL.
AHC: Orthodox-phobia instead of Islamophobia
- Thread starter whitecrow
- Start date
Maybe Muslims as well as Jews emigrate to the US in large numbers in TTL.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
You could also have a Soviet Union-esque analogue with the Russian Orthodox Church as one of the main pillars and supporters behind a hypothetical Russian 'Iron Guard', similar to Romania's Iron Guard.
OS fan
Banned
This is an odd idea, but let's speculate about it.
Now one could imagine that Communism had never taken power in Russia, or broke down earlier, or think about a future in which the west will be unable or unwilling to interfere in Russia.
In this case, one could get a religious revival in Russia, with a growing optimism (and population). This might include crusades. However, those would rather be directed at "Tsargrad" (Istanbul) and Jerusalem. So, western Europe wouldn't be much worse off.
Now one could imagine that Communism had never taken power in Russia, or broke down earlier, or think about a future in which the west will be unable or unwilling to interfere in Russia.
In this case, one could get a religious revival in Russia, with a growing optimism (and population). This might include crusades. However, those would rather be directed at "Tsargrad" (Istanbul) and Jerusalem. So, western Europe wouldn't be much worse off.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Actually, they should add Alexandria and Antioch as well since Moscow would be in a position to unite the rest of the four other ancient Patriarchates.
Yeah, said state would literally try and eat the Ottoman empire whole convert its population, and favor more religiously convenient ethnicities..
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Now that would be a complete overkill. What were the internal factors that made Islam popular with non-Muslims curious enough to convert? Perhaps a similar approach to the Orthodox Christian faith would be applied.
whitecrow
Banned
Of course. Proponents of Eurabia don’t limit their fear to Muslim Arabs but extend them to Persians, Pakistanis, Albanians, Berbers, etc, etc etc.
Neat idea. Though it does not quite fit the bill: remember, that if we are going for a “Eurabia” analog, than the anti-Orthodox and anti-Slavic rhetoric shouldn’t be “Russians are going to invade Western Europe!” but rather “Orthodox Slavs are going to immigrate to Western Europe and breed like rabbits until they outnumber Western-European Catholics/Protestants/Atheists/whomever.” I think Draco’s scenario on page 1 sets up such a situation the best. But I really like how you managed to combine Orthodox-phobia with Yellow Peril by having Orthodox priests be “hugely successful” with in converting Chinese peoples
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Orthodox-Taliban analogs hiding in Carpathian Mountains
? Great mini-TL !MarshalBraginsky
Banned
To explain more about Tubabao's Miracle, the PoD was that the letter sent by John Maximovitch never gets sent to the US, resulting in not being able to get the green light for his congregation to move to America. As a result, 5,000 White Russian refugees who fled from communist China ends up settling in the Philippines and builds a small Orthodox congregation there, which snowballs with a possible Coptic migration there as a result of an even worse Egyptian Revolution that dethroned Farouk and installed Nasser as President. Due to the presence of the White Russian community in the Philippines, other ex-Soviet and White emigre Orthodox Christians of the former Russian Empire migrate to the Philippines until it becomes a serious issue for the Philippine government and the Catholic clergy, since Orthodoxy becomes popular among disenchanted Filipinos. This may be ASB, but there is an actual Orthodox parish in the Philippines in OTL.
Not saying it would be realistically achievable, but as a lebensraum'esque endgame for an authoritarian quasi-theocratic regime...
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Not sure what the reaction of the Old Believers would be in response to Orthodox-phobia, as well as Western Rite Orthodox Christians. (Uniates who are in communion with the Russian Orthodox Church but maintain their Western Rites-ie: Anglican or Protestant Rite)
Actually the closest analogue would be "The Orthodox Slavs are going to come here and blow everything up for the greater glory of God and force everyone to convert to Orthodoxism on pain of death!"
whitecrow
Banned
Sorry I missed this before.
How about these guys as Iron Guard analog? Maybe if they become less russocentric?
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
The Black Hundreds? Now if only these guys lasted for a bit much longer, they could outdo Antonescu's Iron Guard. Assuming that Kolchak would even be the Antonescu or Ceaucescu analogue. So now we would have the ultra nutty right in Russia if they came to power. Other nations with Orthodox populations would certainly emulate the Black Hundreds.
whitecrow
Banned
Looking at the original use of the term, you seem to be correct. However, whenever I hear “Eurabia”, I think about things like Tom Kratman novel Caliphate. Speaking of which, I edited the synopsis of the novel to see what it might look like in a Orthodox-phobic World:
Tsardom
“the varied forms of service... to the tsar and the fatherland are an image of the main service to our heavenly King, which must continue forever.”* – St. John of Kronstadt, author of religious book Moia Zhizn’ o Khriste (My Life in Christ) and the archpriest of the Russian Orthodox Church
Demography is destiny. In the 22nd century European deathbed demographics have turned the continent over to the more fertile Orthodox Slavs. Atheism in Europe has been exterminated. Homosexuals are hanged, stoned or crucified. The remaining Catholic and Protestant populations are relegated to serfdom**, a form of second class citizenship. They are denied arms, denied civil rights, denied a voice, and are specially taxed. Their sons are taken as conscripted soldiers while their daughters are subject to the depredations of the continent's new masters.
In that world, Petra, a German girl separated from her family and sold in a business transaction between two Slavic neo-nobles at the age of nine, dreams of escape. Unlike most serfs of the day, Petra can read. And in her only real possession, her grandmother's diary, a diary detailing the fall of European civilization, Petra has learned of a magic place across the sea: America. But it will take more than magic to free Petra and Europe from their bonds; it will take guns, superior technology, and a reborn spirit of freedom.
* - I feel really uncomfortable using a Saint’s quote in such context
** - Yes, I know serfs made up the majority of the population in Russia, not the minority. But I figured that in the 22nd century most of the hard labor historically done by serfs could be relegated to robots while other menial and embarrassing jobs can be relegated to oppressed religious minority serfs
Hkelukka
Banned
Easy;
1. Have Russia have a population of over a billion
2. Have a population growthrate of about 1-3%
3. The GDP/capita of a place like Eqypt.
4. Massive numbers of unemployed illiterate people.
5. Require a foreign enemy to blame for the predictably horrible consequences of the religion. Blame either the Jews, or New Yorkers.
Now have Russia that has a literacy of 60% or so.
Now make sure Russia has at least 1 war per decade with South-Korea, based on the reasoning that during the cold war the Soviet Union controlled North-Korea.
And you're set. Islamophobia will be converted to Orthodoxphobia, just like Kim-Jong-Il Phobia and Nazi-Phobia and Communist-Phobia were succesfully converted to Islamophobia=)
1. Have Russia have a population of over a billion
2. Have a population growthrate of about 1-3%
3. The GDP/capita of a place like Eqypt.
4. Massive numbers of unemployed illiterate people.
5. Require a foreign enemy to blame for the predictably horrible consequences of the religion. Blame either the Jews, or New Yorkers.
Now have Russia that has a literacy of 60% or so.
Now make sure Russia has at least 1 war per decade with South-Korea, based on the reasoning that during the cold war the Soviet Union controlled North-Korea.
And you're set. Islamophobia will be converted to Orthodoxphobia, just like Kim-Jong-Il Phobia and Nazi-Phobia and Communist-Phobia were succesfully converted to Islamophobia=)
Anticlimacus
Banned
I know this is not a politically correct question (but I do not mind about it), but what do you understand by Islamophobia?
Our world is not an Islamophobic one.
Do you know that 85% of the people that are killed in the world because of their religion are christians?
Do you know that christian churches have more difficulties to carry on their cult in Islamic world (playing a bell from a bellfry is punished by law in Morocco), China, North Korea, India and even in countries of western culture?
Apostasy is punished by law in most of the islamic world, not in christian countries.
Our world is not an Islamophobic one.
Do you know that 85% of the people that are killed in the world because of their religion are christians?
Do you know that christian churches have more difficulties to carry on their cult in Islamic world (playing a bell from a bellfry is punished by law in Morocco), China, North Korea, India and even in countries of western culture?
Apostasy is punished by law in most of the islamic world, not in christian countries.
Do you know that many, MANY rightwingers point at muslims as a "menace"? Do you know the rising racist fear against the muslim peoples, painted as treath to progress and all?
Do you make the differences between theocratic fanatics and the masses? Do you realise MANY muslims are killed by them also, and the legacy of colonialism from CHRISTIAN and other powers? There is also nations where mulsims are also oppressed, like PRC.
Your points have some truths, but it also is the stuff that feed hate to them.
I estimate a century max for some pogroms against muslims in occidents.
Anticlimacus
Banned
No. They are just numbers. If an alien came to earth would see that the most hated religious group is christianity. And it does not have to do just with colonialism.
Do you consider a threat to progress the implantation of sharia or not? There are groups in Denmark, United Kingdom, Netherlands and Spain that claim for the implantation of Sharia. Just check the news.
As I said my possition is not politically correct, but it cannot be denied. Of course there are also muslim pursued by their faith in China (and they would be also in North Korea or in Belarus), but that does not change my point. What is the situation of the coptish community in Egypt (that does not have to do with colonialism, they were there before the muslims)? Is is possible to practice another religion than islam in Saudi Arabia? What is the situation of converts to Christian Churches in Iran? What do you think of the blasphemy laws in Pakistan?
Compared to that the "theory" that in one century there will be progroms against muslims in Europe is a joke.
Hkelukka
Banned
Its easy to be in the majority when most mods are redicilously pro-islam. Dont be surprised if you get banned or kicked for your comments =)
The mods are not pro-islam, they are antiracists and opposed to such other forms of jerkass fools.