Your challenge, if you choose to accept it, is to have England, and by extension the British Isles, be influenced substantially by Arab culture. The POD can be anytime, and I understand this is really tough, almost like 15th century Byzantine survival tough, or even ASB, but we'll still try to make it possible.
AHC: An Arab-influenced England
- Thread starter SunKing105
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- england
Maybe if the Umayyads manage to unify Spain, and thus become more culturally significant. That could influence England by extension.
Otherwise, "substantially" is a vague term. How substantially are you talking about here?
I can see England/Britain being more influenced by Arab culture, probably via some kind of deeper relationship with Morocco. If Morocco (and some surrounding territory) ends up a British protectorate/colony, then that could lead to a large Arab (and also Berber) migrant community in Britain, and thus culturally influence Britain in the way that India has.
Otherwise, "substantially" is a vague term. How substantially are you talking about here?
I can see England/Britain being more influenced by Arab culture, probably via some kind of deeper relationship with Morocco. If Morocco (and some surrounding territory) ends up a British protectorate/colony, then that could lead to a large Arab (and also Berber) migrant community in Britain, and thus culturally influence Britain in the way that India has.
Maybe if Al-Andalus survived there could be close bonds based on hating the French?
This is the best timeline without some sort of migration trend that would be impossible in the timeframe. Have the Almohads not suffer the same otl setbacks. Combine this with John of England managing to defeat his internal rivals and successfully make relations with the Almohads. This creates a potential Anglo-Almohad alliance against the Papacy-France-Iberian crusader states. Long term, Islamo-Arab influence is highest in England as a 'safe-haven' for Arab merchants, pirates and dignitaries from Northern Africa.
Osman Aga
Banned
The best odd of success is the 8th century. If the Franks are divided and Islam is in control of all of Iberia and maybe some parts of Gaul, the Muslims can start raid the Anglo Saxon Kingdoms. Maybe one ruler converts to Islam to justify attacks on other Anglo Saxon Kingdoms.
The other option is John I of England securing his reign, defeating the rebels, he may successfully go for an alliance with the Almohads. There were sayings he was open to conversion to Islam but whether that is false to justify the rebellion against him or true as he was an opportunist, I can't tell. What is necessary is the Almohads crushing the Iberian Christians. But... I see that it is explained by someone else...
Would England be find with working with Muslims out of the gate or would it take a lot of extra threat from France and co to make it appealing?
If this happens before Viking raiding gets going I could see them losing the chance as some "anti-sea raiding reforms" would have gotten underway sooner.
England was happy to be friends with Morocco to thumb their noses at Spain.
King John, as mentioned above. Supposedly, he was communicating with the Almohad Caliph al-Nāsir, who declined the offer.
Poitiers goes to the invaders and then you have a Muslim Empire running from Gibraltar to the Channel.
Al-Andalus simply existing as a unified entity would undoubtedly cause a great influence on England both politically and culturally, although an Anglo-Almohad alliance timeline is a lot more interesting to explore than just Muslims winning at Tours.
I also agree that if England/Great Britain was in closer relations with Morocco, either as an alliance or as a protectorate against the French or the Spanish, Arab immigration could've started a lot earlier and more substantially than now.
I also agree that if England/Great Britain was in closer relations with Morocco, either as an alliance or as a protectorate against the French or the Spanish, Arab immigration could've started a lot earlier and more substantially than now.
The Ummayads were seriously overextended at this point, and they had already suffered a serious defeat at Toulouse. They even considered abandoning Al-Andalus due to logistics IIRC. Tours was just a glorified raid, and if the Ummayads had won, most likely they'd conduct a few more raids, achieve some sort of status quo, and possibly retreat once the Berber Revolt starts and the Abbasids take over.
Not my forte, but let me try.
Vikings increase eastern trade (they had some IOTL) contact the Arabs, don't give a **** about religion, trade with it, get northern England earlier, influence it more, start up it's trade with the east, leave under an alt-Alfred the Great, by then the northern england is pretty deep in trade with it, someone from the north unites England, meaning more northern influence, meaning continued trade, meaning arab influence.
Hope this works.
Vikings increase eastern trade (they had some IOTL) contact the Arabs, don't give a **** about religion, trade with it, get northern England earlier, influence it more, start up it's trade with the east, leave under an alt-Alfred the Great, by then the northern england is pretty deep in trade with it, someone from the north unites England, meaning more northern influence, meaning continued trade, meaning arab influence.
Hope this works.
Grey Wolf
Donor
This is not how history works, otherwise Islam would never have broken out of the Arabian peninsular. Victory breeds victory, and especially if Martel is killed then the Franks are in a serious weakness. The dukes etc will try more to break away and assert their independence from a successor who comes to power because the last leader has died in a defeat.
Maybe the Arabs or Berbers land and settle in Southern England and erect an Emirate.
That's one of the bizarrest things I've heard lately. Of course, the source is an extremely biased one and very much fictional (almost in CK2-level of weirdness), it shows the creativity of the authors of the period.
Yeah, but again might need a fully conquested Al-Andalus and maybe not berber revolt, all extra berber and arabs ship north them.... how they would call the island? Al-Alba?
Crazy Boris
Banned
An easy way to do it would be to have John’s letter to the Almohad caliph be real and have them work something out. It would take a while for any Arab/Berber culture to reach England and Islam probably won’t catch on and fall out of favour within the next king or two, but it could lay the seeds for some cultural exchange between the two.... provided France, Denmark, or Scotland don’t decide to go crusading, that is.
Do you really think that the Ummayads were robotic conquering machines instead of a preindustrial state like any other? They were operating at the very end of their logistics train, and the Ummayads had their own internal issues. I never said it would have no impact, I tried to say that the Ummayads would not be able to expand significantly further, not that a defeat at Tours won't throw the Carolingians into chaos, which it certainly will, but the stuff about it "saving western civilization" and preventing a Muslim France is way to overblown IMO, and the Ummayads aren't in the best position to capitalize on it if they start running short of manpower.