Affiliated States of Boreoamerica thread

[False Dmitri]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/wiki/doku.php?id=stories:asb-pic_world

I've made the Wiki page into a more complete summary of the project so far. The plan is eventually to create plenty of subpages for storing the known lore of this world. Anyone feel free to make changes, clarifications, expansions. If anyone wants to start making new subpages for content, please also feel free.

I also put the Grand Unified Timeline onto the wiki for all to see. Every recorded date in ASB and state histories gets added there. There are few dates that don't directly relate to the ASB itself, sorry to say.

Awesome idea! Can I add a suggestion? The UK's House of Lords also has Lords Spiritual. I think the ASB can have the same. I think the Chiefly Council should include a few bishops, both Catholic and Angican and one of those Swedish Lutheran Bishops. A gazillion bonus points for somebody who can find a way for a Bishop-Prince to be there too. And because this is in America, there should be presidents of other churches (like Methodist, Baptist, and Mormon) so they don't feel left out. I can see a modern ASB adding leaders of black churches into the mix. And maybe a couple prominent rabbis and during a radical phase even a witch or pagan leader.

So... hm. My first thought was no, that's too weird, no way. On the other hand, looking back at the origins of the Chiefly Council, there definitely were religious leaders, mostly missionaries, who participated in the earlier Grand Councils. I had assumed that these types simply stopped participating as the ASB's institutions evolved into a modern government. I don't know, somehow the Chiefly Council doesn't seem quite right, either. It's not simply an imitation of the House of Lords, after all. Would it make sense for religious leaders to have their own, yet another body? Sort of a First Estate whose role ends up being ecumenical relations.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of some kind of "established pluralism". It fits the culture of the ASB - I have certainly written a lot about religion. And some states have a history of Establishment. Carolina's government *was* explicitly modeled on England's, and Anglican bishops had seats in the upper house until 1903. Labrador, too, had Moravian clergy participate in the government until the 20th century. ... I also think I lean more toward giving them their own separate body rather than make them members of the CC, but there I'm not 100% sure.

 

[Venusian Si]

To throw out more ideas about South America, since Spanish policies were to keep Nahuatl as a major regional language in Mexico, it seems likely that the same would be the case for Quechua in the Andean region. Perhaps with more other polities in South America, the Spanish colonies would be less likely to split up... a much larger, Quechua speaking Peru including OTL Bolivia, northern Chile, Ecuador, and maybe most of Colombia could be an interesting idea to explore.

Woah. It would look like a Post-Spanish Inca Empire. That is an interesting thought.

Personally, I think that a Post-Spanish Mega Peru that reforms itself into a quasi Neo Inca Empire would be an awesome idea! And it should be relatively easy to do to. OTL Bolivia (once called Upper Peru) was originally part of the Viceroyalty of Peru until it was detached from Peru to join the newly formed Viceroyalty of Rio de la Plata in 1776. Considering how late in the game this decision was, it doesn't seem totally unreasonable to have it remain part of Peru instead of Rio Plata viceroyalty. With Bolivia still a part of Peru, that means that Peru and Chile maintain a land connection, thus a greater chance of those two remaining united after Independence also increases.

We know about Upvoteanthology's French conquest of Patagonia in the very early 19th century. I don't know that she ever created any details, though. I would assume that any state that exists there today is heavily indigenous, and that French culture is only a rather thin overlay.

From what I can tell, the indigenous Patagonian population was relatively pretty low in both density and absolute numbers, so French culture could probably be very dominate if France ended up treating Patagonia as a penal colony (a French Australia in South America) or a diplomatic outpost in the late 19th century. Though based on French colonization in North America OTL, Metis still probably end up being a significant percentage (if not majority) of the population anyway.

Now with that said, here's my ideas for the various Austroamerican nations outside of the area of OTL Brazil/Uruguay/the Guianas - suggestions appreciated!

***

Klein-Venedig/Venezuela - As has already been noted, it's very unlikely that a German polity would be able to seize control of Venezuela from the Spanish and establish firmly German culture. What is possible though is a strong alliance between Spanish and *German interests could lead to a higher rate of German immigration to the Spanish Americas both before and after independence - with Venezuela becoming a sort of center point. This eventually allows Venezuela to evolve into a Spanish-(Klein Venedig Standard) German bilingual nation - similar to Mexico, Yucatan, and Paraguay.

By the modern day, Klein-Venedig/Venezuela is a wealthy oil nation. While both the German and Spanish names are considered the nation's official names, the name that is preferred as the common name by non-Venezuelans varies. In much of Meso and Austroamerica, Venezuela is the nation's common name while in the ASB, Rupertsland, the UAS, etc., Klein-Venedig has become the preferred term to refer to the nation.

New Granada - Since Colombia was in OTL split off from Peru in 1717, it seems plausible to have the nation split off from Peru ITTL too. Due to various demographic factors, the country is majority Spanish speaking with a small percentage of speakers of both indigenous and immigrant languages. Relatively similar to OTL Colombia but with perhaps a politically/economically better 20th century.

Ecuador - Along the same lines of New Granada, Ecuador is predominately Spanish speaking with a large Quechua speaking minority.

Peru - After a few years of being a Republic, a group of Quechua speaking revolutionaries overthrew the Republic and established an empire - and in their eyes restoring the glory of the previous Inca Empire. Political discontent among Spanish/Aymara speakers among others would led to political/economic reforms that led the government to lead to more equality between all of the different language/ethnic groups in the early 20th century. The early 20th century would also see a (Indigenous flavored) version of Futurism become a dominate ideology/movement within the country.

By the modern day, the Empire of Peru is a large developed nation. Quecha, Spanish, and Aymara are the three dominant languages, but dozens of indigenous languages from the Andes to the Amazon basin receive legal protection and culture recognition. Abroad, Peruvians are well-known for their love of technology and its possibilities - even though visitors will note the decidedly anachronistic aesthetic of Peru's tech - along with Fashion, architecture, etc.

Paraguay - Similar to OTL, Paraguay is a proudly Spanish-Guarani bilingual nation. The biggest difference between Paraguay ITTL and OTL is that without a War of The Triple Alliance and the enormous loss of life, the nation is more densely populated and economically developed. The nation is also noted for its surviving Plautdietsch speaking Mennonite communites.

Argentina - a wealthy Spanish speaking nation and a major attractor of immigrants in the late 19th/early 20th century. Fears of the Peruvians, Brazilians, and especially French becoming threats to national sovereignty led the nation to chose to pursue even closer relations with the English than OTL. As such, the nation is considered by many even to this day to be an honorary member of the English Commonwealth and unsurprisingly, Argentina has also received a much higher level of English Immigrants than OTL.

Patagonia - The French's "Wild South" to Mexico's "Wild North," the origins of Patagonia can be traced to Romantic-influenced leadership within the Napoleonic government. Eventually, the colony would evolve into a penal colony, but then later become a immigrant magnet among the French who were attracted to the colony's "Individualist" Identity. At some point during the 20th century, the country would break away from France to become a Republic, but it still remains close ties to the motherland.

In the modern day, the country is noted for having a bit of a "French Cowboy" image though said image is a bit exaggerated. It's also noted for having a large immigrant population descended from France's Africa and Asian colonies.

New Cymru - Made up of the OTL Tierra del Fuego archipelago plus the Falkland and South Georgian islands, the Dominion of New Cymru's origins can be traced to the original Welsh Settlers of Y Wladfa in Patagonia. French pressure would eventually see the settlers "trek" south into what would become New Cymru and the territory would eventually join the English Empire in order to provide protection from French claims. By the modern day, the nation still speaks Welsh as its main language and has also played a major role in helping revitalize the Welsh language in the homeland and helped both Wales and Ireland achieve autonomy within the Kingdom of England.

Darien - Geographically part of Boreoamerica but almost universally considered to be culturally part of Austroamerica. In the 1600s, Darien would see a small number of Lowland Scots establish the modern Darien city of Caledonia and later the modern city of Nueva Edimburgo. The small (and unofficial [1]) Scottish colony would survive the 18th century by flying under the Spanish radar (through such methods like converting to Catholicism, bribery, etc.) though within the course of the 19th century, it would integrate fully into the predominate Spanish culture (while also maintaining some Scots-language derived slang and some "Old Money" families maintaining stuff like Family Crests).

The late 19th century would eventually see Darien try to gain independence from New Granada - with citizens from Caledonia/Nueva Edimburgo playing important roles. Interest among both French and Mexican business interests in building a canal would see both France and Mexico funnel money into the revolution and after independence, the world would see the construction of the Darien Canal.

By the modern day, the republic of Darien is a wealthy Spanish speaking nation - which thanks to the canal - plays an important role in Global trade.

[1] From what I can tell, the Darien scheme succeeding seems extremely unlikely. Plus considering the role it had in Bankrupting Scotland OTL, perhaps it would be better to have it be a much smaller individual affair. ​

 

[Gian]

You know, all this talk of England granting autonomy to Wales and Ireland has also got me thinking if we should also extend it to Cornwall, Yorkshire, Lancashire, and Northumbria (which would cover OTL's Northumberland, Cumberland, Westmoreland, and Durham) as well.

And maybe expand Wales's borders to include Herefordshire and Shropshire (just as it had been under the Council of Wales, plus having two capitals (Cardiff and Ludlow) for the Welsh sounds cool)

EDIT: And maybe we should grant autonomy for Greater London, too (encompassing the old County of London because it's going to be a tad smaller than IOTL), plus maybe granting England parts of/all of Normandy, simply because "MUH ALT-VIENNA 1815"

 

[Venusian Si]

You know, all this talk of England granting autonomy to Wales and Ireland has also got me thinking if we should also extend it to Cornwall, Yorkshire, Lancashire, and Northumbria (which would cover OTL's Northumberland, Cumberland, Westmoreland, and Durham) as well.

And maybe expand Wales's borders to include Herefordshire and Shropshire (just as it had been under the Council of Wales, plus having two capitals (Cardiff and Ludlow) for the Welsh sounds cool)

Well in regards to Wales/Ireland, that's basically a parallel of OTL trends such as devolution, etc. I'm not sure what kind of history you'd need to justify Yorkshire, Lancashire being giving autonomy like that OTL style - though depending on how politics evolve ITTL, perhaps England-England could evolve into a more Federal deal in regards to its counties than OTL.

plus maybe granting England parts of/all of Normandy, simply because "MUH ALT-VIENNA 1815"

With how differently the Napoleonic Wars play out (No invasion of Russia, etc), I don't think England would have the chance to gain Normandy or keep it in face of Future French aggression.

 

[False Dmitri]

@Gian and @Venusian Si - Regarding England, I am envisioning Ireland and Wales as having almost total autonomy, including having some sort of foreign policy. It's part of yet another wall-o-text that I need to share, a history of the Congress of the Nations in the ASB that honestly has gotten too long-winded to be of general interest. I'll share the relevant section here:

Spoiler: Vestiges of the Congress in the Twentieth Century

The reform laws of 1899 essentially killed the Congress of the Nations. It now had no legislative or judicial powers and had no mandate to assemble. But it did not quite cease to exist. Certain officials in each state, ex officio, are still members of a notional Congress. So are representatives of the former colonial powers. Though they have no more authority in the ASB than any other foreign diplomats, these representatives have the title of “Congressional Delegate” rather than Ambassador, and their buildings are called “delegations” rather than embassies.

The foreign congressional delegates continue to have a role in some ceremonial functions such as the opening of Parliament. Their titles and functions recognize the mother countries’ historic role in governing their colonies, and they give the countries a place, even if it is only symbolic, on the inside of the ASB’s institutions. Depending on who you ask, this practice is part of the constitutional bedrock of the confederation, a quaint but harmless tradition, or evidence of an offensive fetish for colonialism.

In the early 1900s, Spain’s turbulent dynastic politics left the king an exile in Florida while Spain itself fell under the rule of a different monarch. This meant that Spain, unlike all of the other former colonizers, no longer had even a symbolic connection to any part of the ASB. The reform laws had just been passed and the vestigial Congress was still seen as at least potentially important, so the reasonable thing was to get rid of the seat for the Spanish delegate. Decades later, when the situation in Spain was stable once again and good relations with America had been restored, the full Congress had a rare session in which the Spanish ambassador was solemnly restored to that body. The President’s speech at the time said that re-inducting Spain “honors your country’s place in our history” - by now, no one pretended that the Congress had anything more than a symbolic function.

In a similar way, when the connections between England and Ireland were loosened and Ireland began to send out its own diplomats, Ireland was honored with a Congressional delegation. The thinking was that even if Ireland had never colonized America on its own, Irish autonomy represented a splitting of the historic Kingdom of England rather than the appearance of a new country, and that both parts of the historic Kingdom should be entitled to the dignity of a seat in Congress. Furthermore, the delegation symbolized the great influence of the Irish in Boreoamerica.

Spoiler: The Radnor Congress

Later, Wales attained a status similar to that of Ireland, and its representative received the same honor - the only time that the Congress has met in the twenty-first century. Unlike the other ceremonies, which took place in the capital, the induction of the Welsh delegate was held in Radnor, a Philadelphia suburb with a prominent Welsh heritage. The event drew a lot of attention and revived interest in the history of the body. Locals were eager to celebrate their town’s place in the Congressional tradition.

The number of foreign Congressional Delegates now stands at eight: England, Scotland, the Netherlands, France, Sweden, Spain, Ireland, and Wales.They represent not just the heritage of the colonial powers, but the whole tradition of Congresses that contributed so much to the alliances undergirding the ASB.

Now within England proper, there's no particular reason why the country can't pursue some kind of federalization along regional lines, though devolution would not reach the extent of Ireland and Wales. Do you envision an asymmetrical federalism, with devolution mainly happening in the places you mentioned? That would seem appropriate for England, actually.

********

From what I can tell, the indigenous Patagonian population was relatively pretty low in both density and absolute numbers, so French culture could probably be very dominate if France ended up treating Patagonia as a penal colony (a French Australia in South America) or a diplomatic outpost in the late 19th century. Though based on French colonization in North America OTL, Metis still probably end up being a significant percentage (if not majority) of the population anyway.​

That's a good point. And there is also the possibility of people from other French colonies settling there as well, as happened in OTL Guyana. Someone, possibly you, made that suggestion a few pages back.
​

Now with that said, here's my ideas for the various Austroamerican nations outside of the area of OTL Brazil/Uruguay/the Guianas - suggestions appreciated!

Now I prefer to leave things as somewhat flexible until someone has a really strong idea - but this scheme makes sense, given what else is known about the world. I like the mix of familiar and novel. As long as we can be flexible with the details, able to make room in case someone comes up with something amazing, I like it.

Regarding Darién... it seems to me that the Scots at the time had many other opportunities for colonial investment in TTL. The Darien distraction would not have seemed so enticing in a country that already had a functioning colony in North America and, undoubtedly given the cozy relationship with France, ample opportunities to trade with French colonies. If Scotland wanted a Caribbean colony, a far safer and more likely option would be leasing or buying an island from France, rather than sink money into a high-risk venture on the mainland.

To the list, could we add an independent Chiloé island? The island has a truly enticing culture and folklore and I would love to see it achieve independence. It would be right on the borderland between Peru and Patagonia, so it could be a plausible buffer state between them.

********

One final bit related to the ASB itself: I prefer this design to the very hastily-designed cross that I had made for East Florida. When I shared the ASB's collection of flags on (I think) a Facebook group, someone asked why there were no flags based on the Cross of Burgundy. A valid question! Now there's at least one.

 

[Turquoise Blue]

If we're talking Patagonia, why not have the "little Wales beyond Wales" in it, Y Wladfa?

Certainly would be interesting to have a Welsh accent influenced by Spanish and French.

 

[Venusian Si]

@Gian and @Venusian Si - Regarding England, I am envisioning Ireland and Wales as having almost total autonomy, including having some sort of foreign policy. It's part of yet another wall-o-text that I need to share, a history of the Congress of the Nations in the ASB that honestly has gotten too long-winded to be of general interest. I'll share the relevant section here:

Spoiler: Vestiges of the Congress in the Twentieth Century

The reform laws of 1899 essentially killed the Congress of the Nations. It now had no legislative or judicial powers and had no mandate to assemble. But it did not quite cease to exist. Certain officials in each state, ex officio, are still members of a notional Congress. So are representatives of the former colonial powers. Though they have no more authority in the ASB than any other foreign diplomats, these representatives have the title of “Congressional Delegate” rather than Ambassador, and their buildings are called “delegations” rather than embassies.

The foreign congressional delegates continue to have a role in some ceremonial functions such as the opening of Parliament. Their titles and functions recognize the mother countries’ historic role in governing their colonies, and they give the countries a place, even if it is only symbolic, on the inside of the ASB’s institutions. Depending on who you ask, this practice is part of the constitutional bedrock of the confederation, a quaint but harmless tradition, or evidence of an offensive fetish for colonialism.

In the early 1900s, Spain’s turbulent dynastic politics left the king an exile in Florida while Spain itself fell under the rule of a different monarch. This meant that Spain, unlike all of the other former colonizers, no longer had even a symbolic connection to any part of the ASB. The reform laws had just been passed and the vestigial Congress was still seen as at least potentially important, so the reasonable thing was to get rid of the seat for the Spanish delegate. Decades later, when the situation in Spain was stable once again and good relations with America had been restored, the full Congress had a rare session in which the Spanish ambassador was solemnly restored to that body. The President’s speech at the time said that re-inducting Spain “honors your country’s place in our history” - by now, no one pretended that the Congress had anything more than a symbolic function.

In a similar way, when the connections between England and Ireland were loosened and Ireland began to send out its own diplomats, Ireland was honored with a Congressional delegation. The thinking was that even if Ireland had never colonized America on its own, Irish autonomy represented a splitting of the historic Kingdom of England rather than the appearance of a new country, and that both parts of the historic Kingdom should be entitled to the dignity of a seat in Congress. Furthermore, the delegation symbolized the great influence of the Irish in Boreoamerica.

Spoiler: The Radnor Congress

Later, Wales attained a status similar to that of Ireland, and its representative received the same honor - the only time that the Congress has met in the twenty-first century. Unlike the other ceremonies, which took place in the capital, the induction of the Welsh delegate was held in Radnor, a Philadelphia suburb with a prominent Welsh heritage. The event drew a lot of attention and revived interest in the history of the body. Locals were eager to celebrate their town’s place in the Congressional tradition.

The number of foreign Congressional Delegates now stands at eight: England, Scotland, the Netherlands, France, Sweden, Spain, Ireland, and Wales.They represent not just the heritage of the colonial powers, but the whole tradition of Congresses that contributed so much to the alliances undergirding the ASB.

Oh! Very cool!

Now I prefer to leave things as somewhat flexible until someone has a really strong idea - but this scheme makes sense, given what else is known about the world. I like the mix of familiar and novel. As long as we can be flexible with the details, able to make room in case someone comes up with something amazing, I like it.

I'm glad you like, and agreed. I'd definitely be down for improvement.

Regarding Darién... it seems to me that the Scots at the time had many other opportunities for colonial investment in TTL. The Darien distraction would not have seemed so enticing in a country that already had a functioning colony in North America and, undoubtedly given the cozy relationship with France, ample opportunities to trade with French colonies. If Scotland wanted a Caribbean colony, a far safer and more likely option would be leasing or buying an island from France, rather than sink money into a high-risk venture on the mainland.

Hmm...Wasn't even thinking it of it from that angle, but that's a very good point.

And yeah, I definitely agree that the Darien distraction is something that the Scottish government would have no desire of getting itself involved - so if it does exist ITTL, then it would very much be a fringe scheme that by the present day would only really survive in terms of place names. At any rate, I'm fine discarding it.

To the list, could we add an independent Chiloé island? The island has a truly enticing culture and folklore and I would love to see it achieve independence. It would be right on the borderland between Peru and Patagonia, so it could be a plausible buffer state between them.

Sounds awesome.

One final bit related to the ASB itself: I prefer this design to the very hastily-designed cross that I had made for East Florida. When I shared the ASB's collection of flags on (I think) a Facebook group, someone asked why there were no flags based on the Cross of Burgundy. A valid question! Now there's at least one.

Lovely as always!

If we're talking Patagonia, why not have the "little Wales beyond Wales" in it, Y Wladfa?

Certainly would be interesting to have a Welsh accent influenced by Spanish and French.

Well New Cymru is basically Y Wladfa - just moved south to better secure independence from the French - though I'm fine with using the name Y Wladfa or another name that better reflects the connection (Y Ail Wladfa?) instead.

 

[Gian]

@False Dmitri - I can see some asymmetrical federalism happening between those regions of England, yes (maybe as a sort of revival to the Council of the North at first before granting autonomy by the 20th century)

 

[False Dmitri]

I probably should share the aforementioned wall o text. It's detailed to the point of being boring, I think, but at least now it's part of the public record. I had wanted to condense it and put it into more of a timeline format, but I don't have any immediate plans to do so. I'd rather do work on the remaining states as well as the PIC.

The Congressional Tradition

Spoiler: Introduction

The Congresses first arose within the community of English-speaking states and expanded to become one of the most important early institutions of the ASB. In the version usually told in Anglophone states, the Congressional tradition is the central story of how the ASB came to be. In this telling, the Congresses grew from meetings of the English colonies to become the main body for maintaining the North American alliance, eventually giving rise to the confederation in its modern form. This is a contrast to Francophone versions of the history, which tend to give emphasis to the Grand Council, a body that owed more to French colonial traditions. In fact, the Iroquois do the same thing; ask a citizen of Iroquoia and you are likely to be told that his state is the “first state” of the ASB. The Iroquois trace the confederation back to the joining of their own original Five Nations, and later through the creation and expansion of the Covenant Chain alliance, which finally grew to encompass all current member states. The Anishinaabe of the Upper Country see their own Three Fires alliance in a similar way. And really all of these perspectives are correct in their own ways.

Notwithstanding the differing opinions on how central a role to give it, here I would like to consider the history of the Congressional tradition itself. The first Congresses were attempts by English colonial leaders to present a united front to the Iroquois and other nations in the Great Lakes and Ohio. As tension mounted between the colonies and the English government, the Congresses became major outlets of protest and even revolutionary sentiment. After the Wars of Independence, Congresses resumed as the English states, both the new republics and the loyalist colonies, sought common ground for regulating and encouraging trade with each other. The old desire to coordinate relations with the Iroquois resurfaced, and soon Iroquois and New Netherland delegates were attending Congress regularly. The region’s last major war ended in 1808; after that, Congress was established as a permanent institution: the Congress of the Nations. This Congress was a foundation stone for what became the ASB. It lost power to other institutions, namely the Grand Council and, ultimately, the Parliament. In the second half of the nineteenth century its powers were stripped away one by one before being essentially abolished, surviving only as a vestigial body today.

The first Congress took place in Carlisle, Pennsylvania in 1744. It was basically the OTL Albany Congress, but slightly earlier. There were three others of this sort held in Springfield, Massachusetts; Alexandria, Virginia; and Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Then came the Revolutionary Congresses, which were something like the OTL Continental Congresses, in the 1760s and 70s. These took place in various towns in New England, Pennsylvania, and Virginia.

Spoiler: The Annapolis Caucus

As the Wars of Independence died down, the reality sank in that the English states were now more divided and isolated than they had been prior to the wars. Both the monarchies and republics were geographically scattered and politically divided. Only the New England states made an attempt at unification, the Confederation of New England. It was hampered by rivalries among the states and the belief that Massachusetts was trying to impose its will on the other members. It already started to unravel in 1779, when Plymouth, fearing domination or even annexation by Massachusetts, left the Confederation and restored the monarchy. Meanwhile, tariff wars and skirmishes over territory were hurting all the English states.

A belief began to grow that the English of Boreoamerica depended on one another for peace and prosperity, and that greater cooperation would be in every state’s best interest. Like-minded leaders called for a meeting to take steps toward restoring friendship and good commercial relations among them. The meeting was planned to take place in 1781 at a tavern in Annapolis, then the capital of Maryland. The location was significant: Maryland, with its odd loyalty to the Jacobite pretender, had long been a pariah among the English colonies. The meeting was a sign of newfound acceptance for Maryland in the community of states. And while the meeting at the time was called a “Caucus”, an informal political gathering, its outcome and long-term effects were so momentous that nowadays we place it together with the other Congresses of the English states.

Only a few states actually sent delegates to Annapolis. They included Maryland’s immediate neighbors as well as Connecticut and Plymouth in New England. Plymouth alone represented the loyalist element. Nevertheless, the delegates produced a rather boldly worded recommendation and approved it unanimously: that the English states should assemble again in Congress, as they had before the wars. The scope of the congress would be nothing less than the creation of a new system in which all of the states could peacefully exist and trade together. Each state government was called to send congressional delegates to the town of Huntingdon, Connecticut, on Long Island, one and a half years following.

The various states, republican, loyalist, and Jacobite, could easily have gone their separate ways after the Wars of Independence. At Annapolis, the delegates resolved to do the opposite, to seek out ways to jointly solve problems, even with their former enemies.

Spoiler: The Huntingdon Congress

However, these remained turbulent times. The ongoing collapse of the New England Confederation threatened the entire project. In the time between the Annapolis and Huntingdon Congresses, another state, Connecticut, voted to leave the Confederation and return to the English Crown. As Connecticut was also the host of the Congress, this caused a stir.

Many people in Massachusetts especially were incensed at Connecticut’s betrayal. The legislature repealed the bill that had named delegates to the Congress. Massachusetts was the chief commercial power among the states, so a congress to address commercial questions could hardly proceed without it. The entire cause of continental cooperation was on the verge of failure.

This alarmed other Republican states, in particular Rhode Island, which was now nearly surrounded by loyal Dominion states. Rhode Islanders were anxious to repair relations with their neighbors. A stream of Rhode Islanders, many of them veteran officers whose revolutionary credentials were impeccable, went north to urge legislators to reconsider. They argued in public and private that continental peace offered the best hope to preserve the revolution’s legacy. Representatives from Pennsylvania and Iroquoia also appeared in Boston to lobby the governor and members of the assembly to participate in the new Congress.

Massachusetts moderates concurred, and they pushed a new bill naming a new delegation at the last minute. The Huntingdon Congress convened with delegates from every former English colony on the mainland. The town of Huntingdon had been chosen because it was one of the most southwesterly spots in New England, closest to the Middle Atlantic states, and also because it was a quick journey from New Amsterdam, should the delegates wish to request meetings with ministers from New Netherland or Iroquoia.

This Congress lasted over a year. In the early weeks, the proceedings were dominated by a group of delegates with a sweeping vision of a new continental order. Discussions ranged far beyond the commercial concerns that had come up at Annapolis. Members like Virginia’s James Conway Madison saw Congress becoming a permanent institution for regulating the continent; they wanted to draw in the Dutch, the Scots, the Iroquois, and even the French; to create an authority higher than the individual states and colonial powers. It was too early for this vision to become a reality, but it helped to expand the scope of the Congress.

One of the results of this push by Madison and others was an act giving Congress the authority to conduct relations with New Netherland, Iroquoia, and “the Scots of Acadia”. This resolution is often misunderstood. While many decried it as a power grab, it really was a return to the purpose of the original Congresses earlier in the century. On the other hand, while all member states eventually ratified it, it turned out to be unenforceable. Each of the states continued to pursue its own interests, which for Pennsylvania and Maryland meant alliance with the Iroquois, and for Virginia meant competition with them.

The Congress also worked on its main agenda, regulating trade. Complete free trade between the states was not on the table - the Tory states had no intention of giving up their advantage in trade with England and the English Caribbean - but the Congress did establish a regime for the states to trade with one another on a more equitable basis. Congress claimed considerable power to negotiate commerce, and in ratifying the act, the states ceded it that power. In the following years, this act would be enforced with general success.

Negotiations over land ended up occupying most of this Congress’s time. The border between Virginia and Carolina was a thorny topic. So were the claims of some of the states to land in the west. Connecticut, Virginia, and Carolina had already begun to occupy regions beyond the Appalachians, Carolina largely through its alliance with the Cherokee. The delegates reached agreements that all sides deemed to be temporary. Both Carolina and Virginia hoped to gain enough advantage to eventually overpower the other; indeed, Carolina’s English governor and the Crown he represented did not yet recognize Virginia’s independence. Meanwhile, states such as Massachusetts and Pennsylvania looked for opportunities to start their own settlements and compete in the region. These unresolved tensions were the primary reason that the continental order that the Huntingdon Congress created broke down in the following generation.

Spoiler: The Cambridge Congresses

The next Congress assembled in 1785 in Cambridge, Maryland. It was planned to happen at the same time as negotiations in The Hague between England and the New England republics, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Rhode Island. When news and copies of the treaty reached America, the delegates confirmed it and reaffirmed the principle of peace and friendship among the states. The situation between Carolina and Virginia remained unresolved, a truce rather than a peace, but it seemed that the order following the Wars of Independence was going to last.

A second Cambridge Congress in 1786 came after all state governments had had time to read and respond to the Treaty of the Hague. The Congress worked out some details that the treaty did not address, and attended to other minor issues left unresolved from the previous year. It lasted only a month.

There were two more congresses of this sort, one in Philadelphia and one in Boston. After that, New Netherland and Iroquoia became permanent members and historians call it the Anglo-Dutch Congress.

Spoiler: The Hartford Congress

The Hartford Congress, also known as the War Congress, was a continuation of the of the Congressional tradition even during a time of war. The key states behind the Congress were the remaining republics of New England: Vermont, New Hampshire, and Massachusetts Bay.

The states had faced pressure from their allies, Virginia and France, to join the war against England. Vermont was a firm French ally and hoped to use the war as a pretext for occupying new territory; it eagerly joined the war effort and sent troops to join the French at Fort Niagara. New Hampshire also declared war, but support was lukewarm. The election of 1803 gave a majority to anti-war candidates, and they immediately repealed the declaration of war.

In Massachusetts, there was much debate. The people of the new Ashkany townships north of Lake Erie lived side by side with the French of Detroit. They feared for their survival should the French lose and urged the state to support France. But commercial interests in Boston were deeply opposed to the war because of the disruptions it would cause to their trade, both with England and with the Loyalist states. The Great and General Court appropriated some funds to help the western settlers defend themselves, but declined to join the war. The Court also strengthened defenses along the Connecticut River to prevent Vermonters from crossing Massachusetts territory to attack the English further downriver.

Pursuing peace and neutrality had consequences. Vermonters were furious; the rupture over the war is considered the end of the Confederation of New England that had loosely united the three states since Independence. The French of Canada fumed as well, as did the Ashkany settlers. Despite the decision of the Massachusetts legislature, companies of Ashkanymen did participate in attacks against Sandusky and other English positions. Their fears were confirmed when English forces actually occupied the Ashkany valley as a stepping stone toward attacking Detroit and French posts on Lake Huron. Even this attack did not move most people of Massachusetts; they saw the state’s future as lying in overseas commerce, not western expansion. So Massachusetts essentially abandoned its western settlements. The pro-English mood in Boston at that time shows just how much things had changed since the days when they had been among the most ardent revolutionaries.

It was in such circumstances that delegates from Massachusetts Bay and New Hampshire met with all five of the Tory states in Hartford, Connecticut. The Congress quickly confirmed friendship among the seven states and restored commercial relations as they had existed before the conflict. The Congress even broached the topic of the Ashkany. The New England states agreed to restore civil government there as soon as the strategic situation allowed for it. Connecticut and Massachusetts pledged to respect one another’s territory along Lake Erie.

A new member state also participated in the Congress: New Scotland. Since securing virtual independence from Scotland in 1772, the lightly populated province had struggled to find its place in the continental order. It had continued to rely on its traditional alliance with the French in Acadia and Canada, but their friendship had done nothing to stop New Hampshire from steadily encroaching on New Scottish territory from the west. The French had then put pressure on the New Scots, as they had the New Englanders, to join the war. The New Scots had duly declared war after New Hampshire, fearing an invasion, but then paused once they saw New Hampshire taking steps toward neutrality. New Scotland’s government submitted a request for membership in the new Congress a few months after it opened, believing that Congressional diplomacy would allow it to maintain its territory and forge a lasting peace with New Hampshire.

The Congress voted to seat a delegation from New Scotland; even many New Hampshire delegates were now inclined toward a permanent and peaceful border with their neighbor. It was a momentous step for New Scotland, bringing it out of the orbit of France and into the growing web of Boreoamerican alliances. The Congress fixed a border at the St. John River, though for now the New Scots were allowed to keep some of their older settlements and trading posts to the west of it.

The Hartford Congress lasted for more than two years. It did not do much toward ending the war, which raged on across the continent until 1810. But it did keep the Congressional tradition alive and prevented the work of prewar Congresses from being undone. While none of the warring states participated besides the five states of Loyalist New England, it did much to maintain the tradition of alliance throughout the war years. After the war ended, members were eager to continue to use the Congress as a way to regulate the affairs of the English and Dutch states of the continent.

Following the war, the Congresses resume with Philadelphia becoming the semi-permanent home. (Some sessions meet in other towns in Pennsylvania.)

The Francophone states join in the 1830s-40s and it becomes the Congress of the Nations. This turns into one of the main bodies of the ASB. It moves to Two Forts when that is chosen as the capital. The Congress of the Nations begins to decline as Parliament rises, as @Turquoise Blue has written. Its powers are stripped away one by one until 1899, when it disappears entirely except as an honorific used by certain ambassadors, as outlined in my last post.

The only time the Congress met in the 21st century has been in the Radnor Congress of 2004, which was more about acknowledging Welsh heritage than anything practical.

 

[Gian]

With how differently the Napoleonic Wars play out (No invasion of Russia, etc), I don't think England would have the chance to gain Normandy or keep it in face of Future French aggression.

Well, some of the Italian posts (especially with the Two Sicilies) mention something like 1848, which itself was an outgrowth of the conservative reaction in the Congress of Vienna

 

[Venusian Si]

Well, some of the Italian posts (especially with the Two Sicilies) mention something like 1848, which itself was an outgrowth of the conservative reaction in the Congress of Vienna

Even so, a major part of this timeline is a weaker England - as such, I just don't see it being able to maintain control of Normandy even if it had the chance.

 

[Gian]

Even so, a major part of this timeline is a weaker England - as such, I just don't see it being able to maintain control of Normandy even if it had the chance.

OK, so let's see @False Dmitri's opinion on this then.

 

[Doctor President]

Now with that said, here's my ideas for the various Austroamerican nations outside of the area of OTL Brazil/Uruguay/the Guianas - suggestions appreciated!

I love everything here! Especially your ideas for Peru and New Cyrmu.

New Granada - Since Colombia was in OTL split off from Peru in 1717, it seems plausible to have the nation split off from Peru ITTL too. Due to various demographic factors, the country is majority Spanish speaking with a small percentage of speakers of both indigenous and immigrant languages. Relatively similar to OTL Colombia but with perhaps a politically/economically better 20th century.

Having been under the assumption that Klein-Venedig, Darien, Guajira, and probably some other states in northern and eastern Colombia were independent or at least distinct entities, I figured that what's left New Granada was never separated from Peru. I don't mind reconsidering that, but I would like to at least include Ecuador in Peru, given its Quechua heritage.

To the list, could we add an independent Chiloé island? The island has a truly enticing culture and folklore and I would love to see it achieve independence. It would be right on the borderland between Peru and Patagonia, so it could be a plausible buffer state between them.

I just read about this, and it's pretty cool and definitely worth including in the ASB universe. I don't see Peru extending to the Cachao channel— in OTL, the Mapuche in Arauncanía have a long history of resisting Inca, Spanish, and Chilean conquest, at one point receiving attempted assistance from a French lawyer who claimed to be their King, which could be imported into TTL as a Kingdom of Arauncanía that was for a time a protectorate of France through their Patagonian colony. An independent Chile might also still exist in its central region, but everything north of Valparaiso is definitely Peruvian territory.

 

[Venusian Si]

I love everything here! Especially your ideas for Peru and New Cyrmu.

Thanks!

Having been under the assumption that Klein-Venedig, Darien, Guajira, and probably some other states in northern and eastern Colombia were independent or at least distinct entities, I figured that what's left New Granada was never separated from Peru.

Ah. Gotcha. I was basically working under the assumption that the Colombia/New Granada equivalent was mostly together minus Venezuela and Panama. Ha.

I don't mind reconsidering that, but I would like to at least include Ecuador in Peru, given its Quechua heritage.

Funny enough, I was originally thinking of Peru owning most of Ecuador, so I'm definitely down for going that route.

As for New Granada, I mostly didn't include it so as to not wank Peru too much, but if a pro-Quechua language policy remains inforce, then New Granada would presumably have a large Quechua population too - so it could be reasonable to have it remain as well. Personally, I'm fine going either direction too, but based on OTL, including New Granada will also probably mean that Peru is strong enough to maintain control of Panama - which also works for me since the Darien Scheme still basically amounts to a footnote either way.

 

[False Dmitri]

Having been under the assumption that Klein-Venedig, Darien, Guajira, and probably some other states in northern and eastern Colombia were independent or at least distinct entities, I figured that what's left New Granada was never separated from Peru. I don't mind reconsidering that, but I would like to at least include Ecuador in Peru, given its Quechua heritage.

Correct me if I'm wrong: I think you're saying the OTL territory of Peru, Ecuador, Chile, and part of Colombia would have been a single viceroyalty right up till independence, and then stays together afterward. That makes a lot of sense if Spain had less territory up in Colombia.

What do you think is there to hold together such a large territory? Any thoughts on the government of Peru?

I just read about this, and it's pretty cool and definitely worth including in the ASB universe. I don't see Peru extending to the Cachao channel— in OTL, the Mapuche in Arauncanía have a long history of resisting Inca, Spanish, and Chilean conquest, at one point receiving attempted assistance from a French lawyer who claimed to be their King, which could be imported into TTL as a Kingdom of Arauncanía that was for a time a protectorate of France through their Patagonian colony. An independent Chile might also still exist in its central region, but everything north of Valparaiso is definitely Peruvian territory.

I assume that Peru/Chile would have expanded at least a little bit against the Mapuche, wouldn't it?

Now I don't know if Upvote had the OTL kingdom of Araucania in mind, but I always figured there was some connection. We don't yet know the nature of French rule down there - if it was through an autonomous state similar to the OTL kingdom, or something more direct. It could even be a bit of both - "we'll let you rule yourselves under this puppet king, but you have to accept the boatloads of prisoners we send you."

Well, some of the Italian posts (especially with the Two Sicilies) mention something like 1848, which itself was an outgrowth of the conservative reaction in the Congress of Vienna

We may have to adjust the timeline... I'd prefer 1848 be a bit different. And anyway, nationalism in TTL is obviously a *very* different thing from what we know. The nation-state did not become the universal ideal that it did for us.

Even so, a major part of this timeline is a weaker England - as such, I just don't see it being able to maintain control of Normandy even if it had the chance.

I don't want to say it's impossible, though it's quite different from what I had in mind. How did England occupy French territory, and why/how was it permitted to hold it?

 

[Gian]

I don't want to say it's impossible, though it's quite different from what I had in mind. How did England occupy French territory, and why/how was it permitted to hold it?

I would like to say that it came from an alternate Congress of Vienna of some sort (based on this set of info for Italy, which does indicate for me that that took place.

After the Congress of Vienna, the Republic of Genoa is restored to its pre-revolutionary borders as a Duchy aligned to the Austrian Empire, instead of being annexed by the Kingdom of Sardinia; the Duchy of Genoa is also granted the island of Corsica. The POD? Talleyrand dying in a very suspicious incident, and the Austrian Empire taking advantage of this. As a result, the Kingdom of Sardinia is a much weaker entity, and republicanism - both federal, as advocated by Carlo Cattaneo, and unitary, as advocated by Giuseppe Mazzini - becomes a much more appealing option for the peninsula's nationalists.

Once the 1848 revolutions happen, the leading role isn't taken by the Kingdom of Sardinia, but by the Confederacy of Northern Italy - an alliance between the restored Republic of Genoa led by Mazzini and the former Lombardy-Venetia, now split between the Republic of Saint Mark led by Manin (as in OTL) and the Golden Ambrosian Republic led by Cattaneo. The region of Romagna, a historically rebellious component of the Papal States, joins the Confederation just as Giuseppe Garibaldi lands there, followed by quite a few veterans of his wars in South America, as the United Provinces of Romagna.

Leading the peninsula's republican troops against all odds, Garibaldi is fatally wounded during the battle for Trento, that the Confederate troops will win, and dies soon afterwards. His wife, Anita, stubbornly refuses to leave the command of Garibaldi's troops to someone other than herself, openly challenging and opposing orders from above; Garibaldi's army swells in size, due to a combination of sympathy for Garibaldi and Anita's rather liberal outlook on accepting willing volunteers from all walks of life - in fact, enough girls and women would join Anita's army that a whole regiment - the now legendary Bianca Maria Visconti Brigade - would be created for them.

The Hungarian and Italian forces are able to meet on the outskirts of Laibach, defeating the Austrian forces just as the Habsburg navy experiences a mass mutiny led by the many Venetian members of it, who defect to the Republic of Saint Mark.

The Confederacy of Northern Italy becomes the Confederacy and Empire of Italy when Carlo Cattaneo - who was never really an enemy of the Habsburg crown, since even in OTL he would've been content with greater autonomy for Lombardy inside the Austrian Empire - proposes to the monarchical heads of state of the peninsula to join the new polity, that would have a very weak central government. They accept, even Pius IX, who never quite stopped having liberal tendencies in this ATL.

The constitution of the new country is heavily modeled after that of the Old Swiss Confederacy, with a unicameral Senate made up of ten representatives for each member country, elected or appointed according to their countries' own laws on the subject, an elected Prime Minister and an elected Emperor - the first of them being Leopold II of Tuscany, as Leopold I of Italy.

As for England being able to hold it 'til perhaps the present day, maybe it would come from insistence by Prussia, Austria, and/or Russia to keep something that was in England's "ancestral birthright"* (and to hold France down in case those revolutionary stirrings might start up again in that country).

*Given that the Kings in England were also the Dukes of Normandy as well

 

[Neoteros]

I would like to say that it came from an alternate Congress of Vienna of some sort (based on this set of info for Italy, which does indicate for me that that took place.



As for England being able to hold it 'til perhaps the present day, maybe it would come from insistence by Prussia, Austria, and/or Russia to keep something that was in England's "ancestral birthright"* (and to hold France down in case those revolutionary stirrings might start up again in that country).

*Given that the Kings in England were also the Dukes of Normandy as well

To further separate it from France, they could promote the local Norman as an official language instead of standard French, too.

 

[Gian]

To further separate it from France, they could promote the local Norman as an official language instead of standard French, too.

That too.

 

[False Dmitri]

Here is an idea for a compromise map of South America.

- My one addition: I imagine the Falklands coming under the dominion of Yankee whalers, and since the bulk of these were from the Loyalist states, England would have allowed them the islands. They are the first known "outlying territory" of the ASB, but there are others, certainly in the Pacific. Nominally a colony of Plymouth, the Falklands have long been administered by the Dominion of New England government, with the confederal government closely supervising matters. If this detracts unnecessarily from N. Cymru, I can remove it.

Blank spaces:
- I'm not sure what to do with that middle-southern part of Chile. I'm thinking maybe the aforementioned French penal colony could be there, with Patagonia continuing as a less Europeanized state.
- The northwest corner of the continent is likely split into multiple small states.
- Not sure what to do with easternmost Guiana / northeastern Brazil.

Other things:
- I expanded on Frank's idea of the Amazon as a border. Now multiple countries border it, and it is an international waterway.
- The northern borders of both Peru and Paraguay are complete guesses.
- Argentina's border may be too close to OTL.
- Credit to Tyche for starting this image; it builds on his work.

 

[skozik]

I'm not sure what to do with that middle-southern part of Chile.

Perfect place for a Mapuche state.