A Thorn In The Rose: A War Of The Roses TL

It's interesting how similar and dissimilar Richard of York's deposition of Henry VI was to Henry of Lancaster's deposition of Richard II, and how loudly Lancastrians will acclaim the latter just removal of a tyrant but the former tyranny against a just ruler.
Um, maybe because that’s what it was? (At least from our point of view). Wouldn’t call Richard a tyrant though, but I would call him an egotistical jerk, pretty much everyone committed tyranny against Henry VI, when taking into account his mental illness(es).
I'm still of theory that if Mortimer was older or his father still alive Bolingbroke would have killed them to gain the throne.
I doubt this now. I am not all caught up with Henry IV, but I doubt he’d outright kill him. More likely he imprisons him and Mortimer dies of natural causes*, unless that’s what you meant. He wouldn’t even have to do that since Edward III’s entail may have been in effect during Bolingbroke’s usurpation (I have read that it was and wasn’t, so who knows for sure).
 
Um, maybe because that’s what it was? (At least from our point of view). Wouldn’t call Richard a tyrant though, but I would call him an egotistical jerk, pretty much everyone committed tyranny against Henry VI, when taking into account his mental illness(es).
It being your point of view is pretty much the point. It's entirely subjective.
I doubt this now. I am not all caught up with Henry IV, but I doubt he’d outright kill him. More likely he imprisons him and Mortimer dies of natural causes*, unless that’s what you meant.
I probably should have put "commiserated over their unfortunate demises" rather than the bold and bald "killed".
 
It's interesting how similar and dissimilar Richard of York's deposition of Henry VI was to Henry of Lancaster's deposition of Richard II, and how loudly Lancastrians will acclaim the latter just removal of a tyrant but the former tyranny against a just ruler.
I'm still of theory that if Mortimer was older or his father still alive Bolingbroke would have killed them to gain the throne.
It's a pity Richard II did not have a daughter it's could have resolved or caused many problems.
 
It depends entirely who Richard marries her to and whether they have any support to be King Consort.
It's a pity Richard II did not have a daughter it's could have resolved or caused many problems.
yeah if richard married her off to the wrong guy and she lived long enough to have kids of her own then that would cause a whole mess of problems, to say nothing of the mortimer claim...
 
Sources point pretty strongly to a birth in 1443, more likely that was a mistake
Agreed, 1443 is Margaret’s most likely birth date. Heck, the fact she didn’t have any more children after 1457, implies she was younger than 15/16, or else she could have had more children.
 

VVD0D95

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Agreed, 1443 is Margaret’s most likely birth date. Heck, the fact she didn’t have any more children after 1457, implies she was younger than 15/16, or else she could have had more children.
Trauma of the pregnancy probably made her unable to have kids
 
She was also queen of France, not a mere countess. Difference in quality of care
True, but there were probably other Countesses who had children at that age, though the difference in the quality of care is true! IIRC, she had like, one Midwife in OTL.
 
Chapter 166: Burgundy

VVD0D95

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Chapter 166: Burgundy

August, 1463


Philip, Duke of Burgundy fought back a shiver as the draft came in. He was getting old and as such, that meant that everything was making him feel cold, or too hot. It was damnably annoying.

He looked at his Chancellor and said. “Speak.”

Guillaume Hugonet, Lord of Saillant, had a large nose, small eyes, and a mop of hair. He wasn’t as capable as Philip’s previous chancellor Nicolas, but he was capable. “The French have backed down from their threat of attacking our merchant ships, Sir.”

Philip raised an eyebrow, the King of France was an arrogant little brat who’d barely stopped soiling himself, so to hear he’d stopped his threats was surprising. “What convinced him to do that?”

“A word in the right ear, Sir.” Hugonet replied.

Philip laughed. “Whose ear?” Hugonet had men everywhere, something he’d picked up from Nicolas no doubt.

“The Chancellor of France, Sir.” Hugonet said.

Philip laughed. The Chancellor of France was a greedy man; Philip had had him on the payroll since the man had been a junior minister in the Chancellery during the reign of King Charles VII. “I see.” Was all he said.

“So, what happens now?” Philip’s son, Charles asked.

Philip looked at the boy and frowned, there were lines under his eyes, and he was unshaven. Had he been drinking again? “Now we see if we can drive a hard bargain.”

“Sir?” Charles asked sounding confused.

Philip took a deep breath, his son was still coming to terms with everything that politics involved, he had to remember that he too had been like this at that age. “We’re going to consider the English proposal.”

“Even though the French have backed down?” Charles replied. “I suppose it makes sense, see who we can get the best deal from.”

“Exactly.” Philip said, nodding approvingly. “Plus the English bring a bride with them.” His son needed a bride, he’d been a widow for some time now, and the bastards he’d sired were starting to pile up.

“English trade would benefit the merchants of Flanders, Sir.” Hugonet said.

“Indeed, and the dowry they are offering is not something to be sniffed at.” Philip said.

“And the French? They do not have anyone to offer, and they might well take the marriage as a sign of hostility.” Charles pointed out.

“Indeed, they might, but that is all the more reason to go through with it. The boy sitting in Paris is inexperienced, and if our spies are right, he is alienating a great many of his great nobles through his displays.” Philip said, apparently, the King had taken some nobleman’s daughter as a mistress and then got her pregnant before discarding her for someone else, without even recognising the child from the previous union. “I do not know whether they would be quite so willing to fight for him, if it came down to it.”

Especially if Phil kept the fighting to the north and the north west, closer to Burgundy and away from areas that the French would definitely care about.

“So, we go for this alliance, and see whether the French bite, if they do then we play on their fears, and if they don’t then the King looks weak?” Charles surmised.

“Exactly.” Philip said. “Either way, we come out of this on top.” And that was something that he cared about the most. Burgundy would not be a pawn anymore.

“I see.” Charles replied.

Philip grinned at his son, then looked at the Chancellor. “Let the English ambassador know that we shall speak with him regarding terms.”

“Sir.” The Chancellor said.
 
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