A Superpower Qing Dynasty: Dulimbai Gurun in 2024

[Canopus108]

Before We Begin, Please Rise for the National Anthem of the Great Qing:

The Ninth Lunar New Year Festival of the Current Era as covered by the BBC:​

CARRIE: Over two billion people around the world are welcoming in the Year of the Dragon as the Chinese Lunar New Year celebrations begin. This event kicks off a 15-day festival with this years expected to be the biggest ever held in China. BBC's China Correspondent John Sudworth reports

JOHN: Excitement is in the air here in Songjiang, the economic centre of Qing China, as millions of people, rich and poor, worker and executive, common and noble alike migrate home for Chinese New Year. This years Chunyun, or "Spring Transportation", is expected to be the largest ever as 3.6 billion passenger trips are made by the 1.5 billion Chinese people. Even Emperor Yuzhang himself is expected to put away the state seal for three weeks, though unlike most of his subjects he will continue to use the official "imperial pen" to work after tomorrow's official day of feast and rest. This imperial pen, still officially the only writing tool in China allowed to use vermilion ink, symbolises the continued position of the Emperor as the heart and head of the Qing government.

But because of one decision signed into law with this pen, these years Chunyun is not without controversy. Last year's joint declaration of the Clear Skies Initiative by the Board of Works and Grand Council capped airline travel. As a result, Songjiang International Airport has a record low of 10,000 flights booked this week, and it’s still the busiest airport in China. Meanwhile, the Qing Rail network, which connects over 200 cities across 31 provinces with Maglev, will for the first time see more than a billion total trips. Personal vehicle usage will still see over 7 billion trips but that number is expected to fall over the next few years as part of the “Clean Land Initiative”, also announced last year.

Maglev technology allows for trips three times faster than the old High-Speed Rail, but some feel it's still too slow compared to air. These policies have also faced significant criticism from Qing aircraft manufacturers and airport workers' unions who say it’s putting political concerns over national security and jobs, but environmentalists and rail groups have applauded the move, saying it signals the continued leadership of China in creating a greener world.

I spoke to some travellers regarding their feelings on this new initiative and how it impacted their travel plans.

Traveller 1: Hell no I’m not taking a train. Bishkek is still like two days away with all the stops. I’ll be flying even if it’s harder to get a ticket no matter what the Constitutionalists say.
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Traveller 2: I think it’s fantastic. Way cheaper and much more comfortable. No more sitting in my car on the highway to Chengdu. Even the baggage allowance is better. [Traveller 2 picks up their large suitcase] I’ve got freshly frozen fish in here, so I better get on my train now.
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Traveller 3: So long as I can get home to my family in Mukden on time I don’t care what the government does
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JOHN: Perhaps it is that last traveller speaks for most of China. From Songjiang this is John Sudworth reporting - and Happy New Year to all our viewers!

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Hello and welcome to this thing I'm doing. I've never written a full timeline before, despite my best efforts, but it is already the Lunar New Year here in Australia so why not try something new?

This timeline was born out of the discussions here and will be based loosely on the ideas put forth there. Rather than do a play-by-play of all the decisions made since the point of divergence in 1735, which I would be deeply tempted into making a boring Qing-wank, it will instead be looking at conditions in the modern Qing and the bifurcated world they share with barbarian powers who just won't accept the guiding light of the emperor and his position as the ruler of All Under Heaven. There will also be samples of in-universe sources to look at what happened across the last three centuries. While this world won't be perfect, I hope the slow but steady pace of reforms ITTL China has enjoyed will make for a better world at least.

This Message is Approved by the Ministry of Rites on Behalf of His Imperial Majesty the Emperor, Son of Heaven, Celestial Khagan, Chakravarti, Lord of Ten Thousand Years...

 

[sarsenapati]

Noice! Watching this with great interest.

 

[Canopus108]

In 1850 the world’s first underground railroad was opened in Beijing by the elderly Daoguang Emperor - his last public appearance before he sadly passed. This first line, which went from the Gate of the Zenith Sun at the south end of Tiananmen square to scholars at the Imperial University of Beijing to “ease their travels to advise the emperor” was slow, uncomfortable, and altogether a royal novelty.

Despite this his successor, the Xianfeng Emperor, would in an act of filial piety declare the continued development of his father's rail network a top priority. The Board of Works, which was already hiring labourers for the first real line to connect the city markets to workers residential districts, was of course pleased to comply and earned imperial gratitude for their promptness

For the next decade the rail line continued to expand. These primitive lines were constructed by digging a trench from the surface down, constructing a tunnel, and then covering it. While this strategy required displacing families, the majority of the city benefited greatly from reduced congestion and faster travel. Stations popped up in every district and became more and more elaborate. Even a few of the nobles and elites would begin to ride the system, though only when inspecting their business interests. By 1860 travellers from London, Berlin, New York, and other great cities could marvel at the power and innovation of Qing China as they stared at the imposing rail stations, modelled on traditional Chinese city walls and gates.

Ironically though in Beijing and across China underground railways were only permitted to stand outside the traditional inner cities where the Manchu and more recently the elite in general lived. These quarters were dense with the homes of the wealthy who could not be disrupted by demolition and construction, and most of the inhabitants were uninterested in taking the public underground anyway. By 1861 however, railway construction had been greatly simplified with the development of boring construction that made expansion a simple matter of digging a shaft down and expanding deep below the surface. The spread of electrification had made the line safer and more comfortable than ever too so that while most of the elite continued to travel by horse and carriage or sedan the benefits of connectivity for their servants, adventurous children, and foreign guests made the benefits of the underground obvious. Most cities would embrace these new methods, expanding the underground to their inner cities, and soon the lives of the rich and comfortable were richer and more comfortable than ever before.

Ironically the capital itself was unable to adopt this technique. Beijing sits atop a high water table and high pressure head, limiting the depths of tunnels available at the time. To expand the network into the inner city would either be hugely costly, or require destroying the many architectural marvels contained within the city walls. However, everyone agreed - well, everyone who mattered - that the centre of government for the world's greatest empire needed to have the world's greatest transportation network.

Two plans were put forth. One, the modernist plan, was to rip out the city walls and dig a standard trench underneath. This would enable quick travel around the edges of the inner city from which additional lines could extend outward and inward. The city walls no longer marked anything meaningful, these reformers thought, as Manchu and Han were firmly united and the government was spread in offices across the land. No nation on earth could threaten the smallest island off the coast of Guangdong, let alone the centre of the Great Qing, so they were obviously not needed for defence either. For the nation to keep enjoying the "Universal Prosperity" that was the eras name, modernisation was needed and the walls of the empire should be broken down. This plan would demolish large portions of the inner city around Tiananmen Square but for the Forbbiden City to stay modern this had to be done.

The cultural conservative members of the Grand Council though were aghast at the thought of tearing up the inner city. Manchu identity had not revolved around the language or religion of their people for centuries, but instead the Eight Banners and the common thread that connected them, Beijing's Inner City. It was of course one thing to let in outsiders, but to lose this space entirely to modernity would be tantamount to losing their culture and their place in the empire, dissolved into a sea of Han culture. While ethnic relations had never been better or the empire more peaceful, to the conservatives this looked like the thin edge of a wedge that would establish Han superiority and make them irrelevant. Minority officials regardless of politics saw the danger too and a group that ranged from Princes of the Mongol Steppe to Imams of Khotan to Lamas of Lhasa to even a Rabbi from Kaifeng rallied together to prevent the barriers of the empire from completely breaking down. Even some Han scholars would support them, not being willing to risk the empire's unity and seeing value in preserving the old symbols of the Great Qing.

After a month of work among this eclectic group that spanned parties and cliques, they submitted a second proposal to the Emperor, a compromise that was calculated to win support by solving another issue facing the empire - that the size of the government could no longer be contained in the traditional inner city.

Ever since the Yongzheng Emperor’s tax reforms and the Qianlong Emperor’s industrial reforms in the 1700s, the increasingly large bureaucracy had started to suffocate within the walls of Beijing. As many offices and juniour bureaucrats were located elsewhere as possible, but everyone who was somebody wanted to be in the centre of power. The recent expansion of the Grand Council in limited elections had only put more pressure on the strained capital where the inner city often faced hour-long congestion and a serious housing shortage.

These conservatives, though it went against their every traditionalist instinct, were persuaded by preservationist-minded scholars to propose moving the political centre to an area between the Imperial Palace and the business area of Haidian. This area was underdeveloped and could be safely renovated with modern rail lines and modern buildings, while the Inner City was preserved and freed of congestion (that this would be far more comfortable for the rich conservatives goes without saying). With the promise that the not only the Han but the minority peoples of the empire too would have equal access to these new halls of power, the proposal was enthusiastically endorsed by all of the feudatories (shudi) and even the chiefs of the southwest (tusi).

The Han-dominated Secretariat was shocked but the Xianfeng Emperor, now older and wiser to the policies of the empire, fell in love with the plan. He saw it as a way to preserve the centre of Manchu life, keep the peoples of the empire balanced, and still enrich the nation, and he quickly endorsed it in the Grand Council. The construction of the new Central Administrative District (中行政区) would take 8 years but upon completion in 1869 would be considered the most modern and impressive political centre in the world, taking that title from the renovated Paris to Napoleon the Third’s consternation.

The Inner City, now freed of the burden of political responsibilities, would find itself reaching ever greater cultural heights. Inspired by claims of Paris as the City of Light, the heart of Beijing would embrace street lighting, modern sewage systems, and more palatably a culture of theatre, parks, and street entertainment. While some siheyuan would be demolished and their owners compensated, others would stand proud as the merchants, scholars, and princes within could once more enjoy the city with a little peace and quiet. To this day Beijingers are proud to say that rich and poor live alike in dense hutongs, though of course a cynic might note that the ones closer to the centre are a little bigger and a little fancier. Over these great houses rise the many drum towers and temples of Beijing, and beyond even them rise the modern skyscrapers - though most Chinese view these glass towers as a concession to practicality, and the heart of the city remains at ground level.

Today the city walls, once at risk of being torn down to build a rail line, have been converted into a wide avenue with an unparalleled view over the city, with now-defunct guardhouses turned into shops and teahouses. The people of the nation stroll together as equals, perusing the art and food available from across the empire and the world. Uyghur flatbread sellers compete with newly arrived Turkish kebab stands as the workers clamour for a bite on their break, while the elite discuss over Fujianese tea and Javan coffee whether they should go to the newly opened store from the Ethiopian Empire for woolen rugs, or the traditional Qajari seller they visited last time.

Some entertainment is free though. Performers from across the Qing's allies and protectorates in the Tianxia Network who aren't ready for Songjiang come here seeking their big break, singing and dancing and playing pipa in the streets before dreamily listening to the old storytellers who proudly claim past icons like Cui Jian and Deng Lijun performed right on this very corner back when they were starting out. Above some of these aspiring stars rise bell towers that shadow the walls, silent and cool most of the year until to everyone's surprise they sternly belt out the national anthem 'Cup of Solid Gold' for festivals.

And even though the inner city of Beijing is a pricy place to live, with the world's three most expensive neighbourhoods contained within, tourists from across the globe can still afford a trip if they stay in one of many subsidised and nationally preserved historic hutongs. Visitors might perhaps stroll along the old city walls looking out over at the Temple of Heaven where the Emperor peforms the rites and rituals of the empire, or instead walk along the corridor of a thousand steps to the old Forbidden City. They might catch a traditional opera at the Mei Lanfang Memorial Theatre, or instead call it a day early and cool off with a bubble tea sold right by Qianmen gate - allegedly the first in Beijing, though a teahouse in Chaoyang disputes this. Almost everyone though will conclude their trip with dinner at Beijing’s famous Quanjude Imperial Restaurant - but be careful not to tell anyone you're visiting the original location, as the restaurant proudly notes that it is the second Quanjude, sponsored by the famous Prince Gong after he snuck out of the palace to visit the original and declared it the finest duck he’d ever eaten, and that he absolutely had to get some to the emperor.

But for all its grandeur and pomp and its billions of visitors, Beijing remains firstly the home of ten million families and their hopes, dreams, and inner lives. From across China they come, speaking the hundreds of dialects and dozens of languages of the Great Qing, to make a life for themselves. At first they'll be a little bit lost, finding their way to work and wondering who their kids can play with in such a big city. Sooner or later though they'll be greeted by a neighbour, an "original" Beijinger (whose father brought them as a baby, more often than not), to sternly instruct them on the ways of the city. Which stores are best and which will rip you off, where the best comedies are and which ones are overpriced, and most importantly how to carry themselves - because now they're no longer from Xikang or Hunan or Uliastai or whatever province they were born in. Now they're proud citizens of the greatest city in the world and they better act like it.

These citizens and their many visitors don't stop to think about how a policy proposal from a century and a half ago shaped Beijing, but if you ever get the chance to visit the Great Qing, take a moment to consider how the needs of an ethnic minority and some cultural preservationists helped build the cultural marvel that is the Inner City of Beijing.

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If you think this was all an elaborate way to justify implementing the Liang-Chen plan for Beijing, you would be correct and kudos for having heard of it.

For those who don't know Liang Sicheng was the father of modern Chinese Architecture and a scholar of traditional architecture. His work cataloguing and restoring traditional architecture was incredible, but his greatest achievement was his vision for the renewal of Beijing. A new urban capital would be located between Haidian and the Forbidden City, and while this new city enjoyed modernity equivalent to the Soviet Moscow and East Berlin, the traditional capital would be preserved and enhanced. Unfortunately however this would never come to be and instead the old city walls were torn down for the Beijing metro, Tiananmen Square was flattened, and the Soviet-style Great Hall of the People rose up even as the Gate of China torn down to make room for Mao's Mausoleum.

In this timeline though the Qing, mindful of the inner city as the centre of Manchu life and culture, instead preserved as much as possible to create a place that's expensive to live in but cheap to visit. Architecture trends towards the traditional and is much denser than equivalent western cities with a lot of life 'taking place in the streets'.

If this sort of article is of interest to people let me know! I've got some ideas for other cities like Songjiang (ITTL Shanghai) but I'll probably be looking away from the centres of the empire next to discuss some of the territorial changes that have happened since the 1700s. The Qing of this timeline are significantly larger in the north and with some other slight adjustments in the west and southwest - not a world-spanning blob but still much bigger than OTL's peak.

 

[Dragonboy]

I'm loving this! Keep up the good work

 

[sarapen]

Neat start. Beijing sounds like Paris - few skyscrapers but massive population anyway because everywhere has medium density housing.

 

[HIM Dogson]

Hell yes, very glad to see this- we still haven't gotten a proper Qing survival tl that actually focuses a lot on the Qing rather than just having them as an enemy of the protagonist nation, and I think that starting in the present is the right move- I feel that what makes this scenario interesting is what the Qing and the world around them look like, not how exactly they managed to successfully modernize. Definitely glad to see a look at the wider Empire and world- the vibes I'm getting are that this is definitely a world where globalization is centered around Beijing, with the west firmly on the back foot and acting as revisionist powers, so seeing how that plays out should be great

 

[Canopus108]

Neat start. Beijing sounds like Paris - few skyscrapers but massive population anyway because everywhere has medium density housing.

Thank you! And definitely, that dynamic also sums up a lot of other cities ITTL China too; Serious height restrictions for most districts and a lot more focus on community life at ground level and in the streets. The big exceptions are Songjiang and Nantou (ITTL Shanghai and Shenzhen) where the traditional district is surrounded by 20th and 21st century expansion to accommodate trade - a similar look at those two is set for the future and will give a clearer idea of what the outside world looks like.

Hell yes, very glad to see this- we still haven't gotten a proper Qing survival tl that actually focuses a lot on the Qing rather than just having them as an enemy of the protagonist nation, and I think that starting in the present is the right move- I feel that what makes this scenario interesting is what the Qing and the world around them look like, not how exactly they managed to successfully modernize. Definitely glad to see a look at the wider Empire and world- the vibes I'm getting are that this is definitely a world where globalization is centered around Beijing, with the west firmly on the back foot and acting as revisionist powers, so seeing how that plays out should be great

Thank you! I felt the same way, there's a lot of timelines where things happen in the Qing, but pretty few where the Qing get the chance to be the protagonist. In some ways I think that's a holdover of how in a lot of works before the last 50 years the Qing are often viewed as a a) perpetually tyrannical apartheid state b) completely sinicised former barbarians or c) completely decrepit from start to finish. Personally I'm a fan of both more serious scholarly works and palace dramas set in the period though, and I was hoping to bring a bit of the complex politics and traditional society that I love to the modern day. And unlike the 20th century timelines I was tossing around, this is a much happier world.

Starting at the present seemed like the best way to skip writing dot points about history to writing about daily life and the consequences on the American/European/Western world. There will eventually be chapters depicting events in the 1700s, but those are more difficult to write - my beta readers are by design in no way familiar with the period and are forcing me to rewrite it to be comprehendible for people who don't know the difference between the Jebtsundamba Khutuktu and Changkya Khutukhtu.

As to foreign relations - the "cold war" tag is not there by accident, although things aren't quite as bad as the real world cold war ever got. Another tag that might have been appropriate is "the even longer 19th century".

 

[Canopus108]

Nantou, “China’s Gate”, and Songjiang, “The City of Magic”; the two great economic centres of the Qing are separated not only by nearly 1,500 kilometres but also by a fierce if senseless rivalry.

Songjiang has a long history, with a tradition of textile working that goes back millenia - Songjiang proudly claims that in the 1200s they were the site of China’s first modern textile industry, which built enough wealth for the county to be raised to a city. Ever since Songjiang has taken advantage of her position on the Grand Canal and the Yellow River to become a leading market town, with cotton and silk from across Jiangsu pouring in for processing and sale. It was here that, based on the imported work of Frenchmen Bouchon, Falcon, and Vaucanson, the punched card loom would be developed to speed up the processing of fabric to help meet the demand of the growing merchant class and urban elite.

Songjiang’s modern glory though owes itself to the Jiaqing Emperor, who in 1803 declared that the Songjiang markets would be opened wide so the whole world could know their glory. Eager European traders descended swiftly, buying hundreds of bolts of Suzhou silk every day, while the wives of the rich and powerful would commission patterned dresses to flaunt. Textiles from across the nation would pour in, wool from Mongolia, cotton from Hubei, hemp from Altishahr, and fine clothes from every city. Other goods came too, furniture and artworks and jewellery, and Songjiang’s merchants found themselves growing richer and richer. An elderly James Flint, one of the first Britons to learn Mandarin and an employee of the East India Trading Company, would visit China for the last time to see the city open. He wrote:

“The glories of Guangzhou, glimpsed over the walls of our factory or across the sea from Macau, paled in comparison to Songjiang. Ten times as many ships pour in and out, Chinese junks, the new Floating Batteries, trading vessels from as far as Baghdad, and now us Europeans. Each street is crowded with buyers and sellers haggling over silk that surpasses any from Italy or France. The finest porcelain is stacked carelessly one on top of the other as merchants offer them in sets of eight. Stalls offer lamb and beef spiced with flavours comparable to what the Dutch sell in Europe for ten times the price. I thought to try my skill with the language here but every second man speaks a new language. And yet this is only one city! Oh, the riches we shall now know!”

Artists from across China would come to perform for wealthy patrons, building a rich culture of literary salons, opera, and painters. Most famously the intellectual giant Lu Xun would make his home here, writing scathing indictments of the dark side of Qing society - the continued ethnic separation, the slothful nobles, the gossip loving laborers - to a hypocritical but widespread acclaim. Many tea houses in the city still hang a plaque claiming he wrote something there. Songjiang was also where in 1903 China’s first commercial film would be screened. Titled Glory of the Qing this 20 minute film would celebrate the centennial of the Jiaqing Emperor’s Openness Declaration depicting the love affair of a wealthy young nobleman and the daughter of an European trader as he showed her the sights of the city. The film, blatant Qing propaganda though it may be, would be screened across Europe and marked the high point of Sino-Western relations before the World War and later Cold War. To this day Songjiang remains the artistic and economic cutting edge of Qing China.

Nantou’s pedigree is far less impressive. True, it was a trading centre, fort, and a key part of the salt monopoly but in China every village can claim something. It wasn’t until trade with the Europeans was fully liberalised under the Jiaqing Emperor that Nantou blossomed. Traders outcompeted in Guangzhou sailed down the river to Qianhai Bay and Nantou, looking to undercut the competition. These traders lived at the margins, selling tea and decorations at cutthroat prices, but some found great success. Nantou expanded outwards, absorbing all of Bao’an county and becoming “China’s Gate” as the old town was left behind at the centre.

In the 1900s as electrification and technological progress raised questions of how best to preserve cultural heritage, Songjiang and Nantou answered with “sorry, couldn’t hear you over the sounds of construction”. The two cities were tied for fastest growing economies in China and new trading houses and workers units were needed fast. Officials careers lived or died on how fast they could put buildings up - one particularly aggressive official was nicknamed ‘Manchengwa’, or “digs all over town” during sewage expansion, but it only helped him at election time. Nantou in particular came into its own, attracting laborers from across China to their new factories producing tinned food, lightbulbs, and now cars for export to the south sea. Henry Ford, the infamous co-founder of ultramodernist political thought, would visit Nantou in his middle age, ignoring the many old parts of the town to say that it was

“A shining city on the hill, a city of progress and order. Row after row of factories, houses, and shops, laid out in a perfect grid that nothing would impede the transport of goods and laborers. Every inch of the city is perfectly aligned to create the world's factory”.

In the 21st century this trend has continued, with the two cities claiming the least zoning restrictions and tallest buildings in China. Nowhere else in China do so many skyscrapers stand, even if they still ultimately surrounded the walls and alleys of the old town.

If Songjiang was the city of culture then Nantou was the city of industry. Nantou University is considered the premier school for technology and engineering in China, and Nantou was the first place in the world to discover transistor technology. In the 1900s the two would become ardent rivals, with Songjiang snobbishly declaring itself the cultured and sophisticated city, while Nantou embraces its own reputation as a rough and ready working class town.

Of course, Songjiang is as productive as Nantou by any stretch, and Nantou is well known as the home of the “Chinese Blues' and other working class stories. Both cities contain stock exchanges and the nations banking headquarters. It was Nantou where working class sitcom “I Love My Family” was filmed in the 80s even as Songjiang opened the nations first museum of labour. But still the rivalry persists beyond all reason between China’s two premier economic centres. The two even contest though which of them can claim to have invented the LB - the Electronic Brain. It was after all students in Songjiang University who realised that the punched card loom could do more than apply patterns to silk and drew the first design, but it was in Nantou where they built their factory and got the funding to build the first model, powered by the waters of the Pearl River. Songjiang was the first to adopt the radio and then internet, but Nantou is the home of internet billionaires like Ma Yun and the heart of the “reality+” trend. Most citizens roll their eyes at the feud, even as they line up to try and make it big and find themselves split from friends and family. The future suggests the feud isn’t going anywhere, as Songjiang embraces the green energy revolution and Nantou supports the space economy centred on the southern sea, once more competing to be the vanguard of China’s advancement.


–
The punched card loom is the Jacquard machine - once again in this timeline China has stolen glory from the French. Nothing personal France, think of it as showing how impactful your work was!

Songjiang and Nantou are Shanghai and Shenzhen - except that without European influence the rail line that made Shenzhen so important isn’t built, and Shanghai never gets developed by the legations. Hong Kong is also butterflied away, absorbed into outlying Nantou. Here’s both on the modern map:

I tried to make this chapter more descriptive, hopefully it gave everyone an idea of how these cities feel on the ground. Also a hint towards the nature of the world wars and cold wars.

General housekeeping - having been informed that in fact most people don't know what a "Dulimbai Gurun" is I have switched the order of the title to be more appealing. I'm also going to keep publishing general overviews for now to develop the setting, but a proper narrative is incoming. Mainly I want to keep pushing out content to see what people think of the world I'm building. Some less pleasant sides of the world are coming to when I have time

 

[PrinceofApathy]

Fantastic so far! Definitely got yourself a follower.

Whenever you get to it, I would love to hear more about how the Imperial system works in the present day about daily life in the Court.

 

[sarapen]

I suggest some screwups in the past so it's not all a continuous Qing wank. My suggestion is that every great power has had to learn the lesson that after a certain point in history, occupying a resisting populace is more trouble than it's worth. The traditional places to receive this enlightenment in Asia are Afghanistan and Vietnam, so perhaps an ill-conceived adventure in one of those lands is in order, maybe even both if the Qing were feeling extra-confident.

 

[HIM Dogson]

I suggest some screwups in the past so it's not all a continuous Qing wank. My suggestion is that every great power has had to learn the lesson that after a certain point in history, occupying a resisting populace is more trouble than it's worth. The traditional places to receive this enlightenment in Asia are Afghanistan and Vietnam, so perhaps an ill-conceived adventure in one of those lands is in order, maybe even both if the Qing were feeling extra-confident.

Another possibility could be that the US fights the Chinese to a stalemate in the Pacific- realistically both countries would have near-limitless ability to replenish their fleets, so neither could really gain a decisive advantage long-term. For guerrilla wars, I think Indochina could give the Qing a lot of trouble- I don't think they'd allow for a hostile Vietnam right on their southern border

 

[Canopus108]

Narrator: At home there is your family. Your parents, grandparents, your aunts and uncles and cousins, maybe your brothers and sisters, and one day maybe even your kids! At home younger kids listen to older kids, who listen to the parents, who listen to THEIR parents, your grandparents.

[IMAGE: A large and ethnically diverse family representing different Qing ethnicities]

The world is a lot like that. There’s the different peoples of our country, the Great Qing, like the Manchu, Han, and Mongols. There are our cousins, like Korea and Kazakhstan and Ethiopia. And there’s the Emperor, who watches over us all like a proud grandfather.

[IMAGE: A personification of the emperor joining the ethnically diverse family and smiling]

But just like your grandfather, the Emperor needs someone to do what your parents do, to help him teach the world. For the Emperor, those adults are called the government.

[IMAGE: A map of the Great Qing]

But the Great Qing is a big country, the biggest in the world! Over eleven million square kilometres and 1.7 billion people. And it’s not just us - there are hundreds of countries in need of his help.

[IMAGE: A map of the world]

You wouldn’t selfishly ask your grandfather to ignore the rest of your family would you?

[IMAGE: Crying children representing different countries while a pigtailed child representing China is patted on the head by the Emperor]

No! So the emperor needs a big government to help with lots of different people doing different jobs.

[IMAGE: The Forbidden City. Notably it is open to the general public for visits]

The first of the Emperor’s helpers is the bureaucracy. The Bureaucracy is made up of the smartest and hardest working people in the Great Qing. There’s lots of different things the bureaucracy does, like how you have lots of different classes. When you want to study for maths or history or philosophy, you get into study groups with your friends right? Well in the bureaucracy these groups are called ministries. Some ministries build things, some collect money, some talk to our friends in the rest of the world. When someone misbehaves, there's even a special ministry called the judiciary have to punish them, but they only do that to help us improve.

They all answer to the Grand Chancellor. The Grand Chancellor is like your teacher, making sure every group is studying the right thing and getting good grades.

[IMAGE: Several bureaucrats meeting. They are all wearing Hanfu. One bureaucrat in particular is better dressed and has a larger hat - the Grand Chancellor]

The bureaucracy helps out the local government, called the counties and provinces. The counties make sure your roads and parks are safe, collect rubbish, and help your school teach you! The provinces make sure that you can get around the country safely and have plenty to eat! But they couldn’t do it without the ministry!

The Emperor knows the ministry is important, and that’s why he lets them meet in his house, the Forbidden City. One day soon your teacher will take you there!

To become a bureaucrat, you need to pass a big test - the biggest test of all! It’s called the Imperial examination and it only comes once a year. You need to know about how to behave and how to help others. Maybe one day YOU’LL pass this test and help others with the bureaucracy.

[IMAGE. The Grand Council Meeting Chambers in Beijing].

But the bureaucracy can’t do everything themselves, no. They need a way to listen to you. But there’s so many of you, it would take them years to ask you all! So they turn to the second helper, the Grand Council. The Grand Council is made up of 1,600 of the wisest and more experienced people in the country. They sit together to talk about how they can make our lives better. Half of them - that’s 800 - speak for different places, like provinces and tribes. The other half - that’s still 800 - are elected by the whole country to represent our values. Some of the Grand Council are scholars and scientists.

[IMAGE: A traditional Confucian scholar and scientist in lab coat sitting side by side]

Some are representatives of all our different religions.

[IMAGE: A lineup of Taoist, Buddhist, Muslim and Jewish leaders with a Manchu shaman in the centre]

And some are workers and farmers.

[IMAGE: An aproned and grease covered labourer shaking hands with a farmer with mud on his sleeves wearing a conical hat]

But for the last one hundred years there have been elections where everyone in the country over 25 choose who speaks for you on the Council. Then they get together to pick a leader, the Premier.

[IMAGE: A Hanfu wearing official surrounded by the diverse councillors. Every seat in the room is now filled, and most officials in the background are Han wearing expensive robes]

Then for five years they get to write laws that tell us how to behave before we have another election to decide if you think they did a good job. What were you doing five years ago? Where will you be in five years? Maybe YOU’LL be a councillor.

Finally there’s the two helpers that keep us safe. One is called the Censorate. Just like the government watches over us the Censorate watch over the government so that nobody can misbehave. The Censorate are smart like the bureaucrats and wise like the councilors and help everyone know what not to do.

[IMAGE: A censor painting calligraphy while in the background a tv plays the news]

The other is the military. They’re like the police but for the whole world. While the censorate keeps us safe at home they watch over our neighbours to keep the neighbourhood safe. The military are the bravest and toughest people in the Great Qing.

[IMAGE: A Mongolian soldier sitting on a tank, a Tibetan mountaineer, and a Uyghur in desert camouflage stand with a Han sailor and Manchu General. Behind them are rows of missiles]

It used to be that you had to be born into a special group called the Eight Banners to be an officer. But now anyone can be an officer! But the military is still respectful of tradition. Traditions are all the rituals we do to honour our ancestors and the Great Qing. No matter who you are, if you join the military you’ll get to take part in fun traditions like waving the banners and singing from the throat.

If you play sports and eat right maybe one day you’ll join the military!

[IMAGE: Children singing and waving flags, which fades into rows of Imperial portraits dating back to Nurhaci. The portrait of the current ruler, the Xuantong Emperor, Puyi, expands]

But no matter how our government serves, they’re all here to help the emperor.

Right now the Emperor is Xuantong. He doesn't have a family name like most of us, but his ancestors are called the Aisin-Gioro. They live in the palace.

[IMAGE: The Garden of Eternal Brightness/The "Old Summer Palace". The photo is of a humble pavillion]

Every emperor is a member of the Aisin-Gioro and lives in the palace. They perform the rituals and traditions that keep the country on track.

[IMAGE:]

But most of the time the royal family live a lot like you, eating the same food and playing the same games.

[IMAGE: The royal family in a large banquet hall. They are dressed relatively casually for royalty. In the background children are playing Chinese Chess (Xiangqi) while some of the older princes play mahjong. In the background a tv plays the news. While better dressed and with much more food, it's not dissimilar to how the average family lives]

They also join the government to guide everyone to work together. They govern based on tradition and our rituals. But Xuantong has the most important role of all, to lead the government. That means making sure the bureaucracy and Grand Council work together to write laws that work for the people, and the military listens to the Council to make sure they're being fair to everybody. And with the Emperor leading the government and the people we can all work together.

[IMAGE: Puyi meeting with the Chancellor, Premier, a General, and a teachers and adults]

So keep listening to your teachers and parents, who will let you know what the Great Qing and Xuantong need from you.
–

Fantastic so far! Definitely got yourself a follower.

Whenever you get to it, I would love to hear more about how the Imperial system works in the present day about daily life in the Court.

Ask and you shall receive.

This post was inspired by A Crown Atomic's explanation of the Entente

Tried to balance it being in-universe propaganda, with useful information, but in case I missed anything:

• The bureaucracy is biased towards Han and is generally the most influential body. "Yes, Minister" was made in China in this timeline about a hardworking bureaucrat dealing with the various needs of Councillors
• The judiciary is not a separate institution and deserves a separate post to explain how messy ethnic and religious law is. But it's basically fair
• The council is the most diverse group but still heavily Han by weight of population. The geographic seats are a concession to the feudatories (Shudi, like Tibet and Uyghur Altishahr) but even then 3/4 of them are Han of course. They're still pretty powerful though and do the majority of lawmaking.
• The censorate is Internal Affairs crossed with the FBI crossed with actual censorship. Sometimes they’ve been odious thugs and other times principled leaders, but they’re always devoted. Propaganda isn't entirely wrong in portraying censorate officers as stoic, ascetic, warrior-philosophers but they tend to skip over the Kang Sheng/Dai Li types who do the dirty work
• The military is majority Han by default but disproportionately influenced by Manchu and Mongol traditions in general, with desert and mountain forces using Uyghur and Tibetan imagery. It's kind of like how New Zealand forces do the Haka mixed with Roman soldier-cults. Also deserves a post which will discuss the division of force and equipment
• Court life is much less ritualistic but also less politically active for most members. Think of the extended British royals before they got pruned. They're trying to balance being down to earth with being active monarchs
• Edited to add: There's no constitution, much like Britain the government is largely an evolution from advisory bodies and noble representations. Also added in a reference to the voting age.
• Spoiler: Bad stuff Emperors did

  Guangxu messed the government up so badly that Puyi is still fixing it up. And Puyi isn't very good at it. So this video is in the context of a Qing that is not quite as confident as it was in earlier chapters. But this is basically how the government has worked since the mid-1800s when elections started

 

[Aichi72]

[IMAGE: A lineup of Taoist, Buddhist, Muslim and Jewish priests with a Manchu shaman in the centre]

I assume the Qing don't have a good relationship with the Christians? Also, do the Jews still have priests?

 

[Canopus108]

I assume the Qing don't have a good relationship with the Christians? Also, do the Jews still have priests?

I just didn't want to repeat "Buddhist Lama, Muslim Imam" etc - it's a Rabbi in this case.

Christians aren't persecuted but they only make up 1-2% of the population and have no court role since the decline of the Jesuits. Most Christians in China are foreign migrants, particularly Oriental Orthodox. They may one day form a bloc to get official inclusion but the Qing are fairly suspicious of protestant, catholic, and orthodox Christianity as a vector for influence. Preaching is still outlawed but the police normally have better things to do.

Islam and Judaism are not widespread but they're recognised religions corresponding to recognised Qing ethnicities (Uyghur, Hui, and smaller ones like the Utsuls). Islam gets some political scrutiny though due to their size and overseas connections but otherwise they're free to organise as they wish. Qing universities are required to have a Halal cafeteria for example and Songjiang's mosque is one of the finest in the world (the Grand Council approves this for reasons of equality and the Censorate for security convenience. The Bureaucracy just wants everyone to submit permits). Muslims are entitled to prayer breaks during work too.

The Jewish community is actually smaller than the Christian community and most of the Qing Jewish community came from Iran or the former Ottoman Empire. But the Jewish community as a whole ran a sharp media campaign linking themselves to the Kaifeng Jews and exemplars like Gao Xuan, and emphasised their shared values, and that plus the

Spoiler: Middle-East

Jerusalem Confederation situation

means their one representative gets featured in pretty much every piece of "we're all equals" propaganda. It's actually something of a joke that it's the same guy every time while everyone else changes.

I suggest some screwups in the past so it's not all a continuous Qing wank. My suggestion is that every great power has had to learn the lesson that after a certain point in history, occupying a resisting populace is more trouble than it's worth. The traditional places to receive this enlightenment in Asia are Afghanistan and Vietnam, so perhaps an ill-conceived adventure in one of those lands is in order, maybe even both if the Qing were feeling extra-confident.

Another possibility could be that the US fights the Chinese to a stalemate in the Pacific- realistically both countries would have near-limitless ability to replenish their fleets, so neither could really gain a decisive advantage long-term. For guerrilla wars, I think Indochina could give the Qing a lot of trouble- I don't think they'd allow for a hostile Vietnam right on their southern border

Right principle, wrong countries.

Spoiler: Vietnam

Vietnam is a stable monarchy. There was a Qianlong-era intervention and the Tây Sơn had to stop claiming they were emperors but things are otherwise okay. Like Mexico and America - friends and allies, but Vietnam keeps a certain wariness.

Spoiler: Afghanistan

Afghanistan is a beacon of stability next to their western and eastern neigbhours. Politically Afghanistan mixes the Swiss Cantons with the oil monarchies.

Spoiler: Overreach

Overreach did definitely happen in the early-to-mid 1900s but maybe later than you might expect? It was under Xuantong, bringing the country down after their Great War high.

Spoiler: Timeline

Basically the Qing spent the 1700s catching up and developing, the 1800s starting to pull ahead and return to regional hegemony, but in 1900 the "end of history" and a poor emperor hit hard. Raw size kept them in the dominant position but their cold war rivals kept them on their toes and broke off some allies.

Spoiler: America

Correct prediction on how America and China fought. The Qing had the bigger navy but it was spread further. It wasn't the bloodiest war and left fewer bad feelings but the naval stalemate and role of Japan set the eastern frontier for the "Cold War". Ever since the Qing have kept a navy big enough to fight America and Europe at the same time, which is not as hard as it would be in real life but still something they have to work at.

The Qing are still absolutely the dominant power with pretty much the whole global system centering on them, but America is strong enough to keep them from landing on the contiguous 48 states and can project power. Basically OTL 2010s China but with less corruption and a war better military.

 

[sarsenapati]

What was the impetus for bringing in (I'm assuming limited-franchise) electoral democracy rather than continuing as an imperial autocracy? Am I right in assuming the 'council' is a Parliament analogue?

 

[sarapen]

I just didn't want to repeat "Buddhist Lama, Muslim Imam" etc - it's a Rabbi in this case.

Christians aren't persecuted but they only make up 1-2% of the population and have no court role since the decline of the Jesuits. Most Christians in China are foreign migrants, particularly Oriental Orthodox. They may one day form a bloc to get official inclusion but the Qing are fairly suspicious of protestant, catholic, and orthodox Christianity as a vector for influence. Preaching is still outlawed but the police normally have better things to do.

Islam and Judaism are not widespread but they're recognised religions corresponding to recognised Qing ethnicities (Uyghur, Hui, and smaller ones like the Utsuls). Islam gets some political scrutiny though due to their size and overseas connections but otherwise they're free to organise as they wish. Qing universities are required to have a Halal cafeteria for example and Songjiang's mosque is one of the finest in the world (the Grand Council approves this for reasons of equality and the Censorate for security convenience. The Bureaucracy just wants everyone to submit permits). Muslims are entitled to prayer breaks during work too.

The Jewish community is actually smaller than the Christian community and most of the Qing Jewish community came from Iran or the former Ottoman Empire. But the Jewish community as a whole ran a sharp media campaign linking themselves to the Kaifeng Jews and exemplars like Gao Xuan, and emphasised their shared values, and that plus the

Spoiler: Middle-East

Jerusalem Confederation situation

means their one representative gets featured in pretty much every piece of "we're all equals" propaganda. It's actually something of a joke that it's the same guy every time while everyone else changes.



Right principle, wrong countries.

Spoiler: Vietnam

Afghanistan and Vietnam are both stable monarchies. There was a Qianlong-era intervention and the Bao had to stop claiming they were emperors but things are otherwise okay. Like Mexico and America - friends and allies, but Vietnam keeps a certain wariness.

Spoiler: Afghanistan

Afghanistan is a beacon of stability next to their western and eastern neigbhours. Politically Afghanistan mixes the Swiss Cantons with the oil monarchies.

Spoiler: Overreach

Overreach did definitely happen in the early-to-mid 1900s but maybe later than you might expect? It was under Xuantong, bringing the country down after their Great War high.

Spoiler: Timeline

Basically the Qing spent the 1700s catching up and developing, the 1800s starting to pull ahead and return to regional hegemony, but in 1900 the "end of history" and a poor emperor hit hard. Raw size kept them in the dominant position but their cold war rivals kept them on their toes and broke off some allies.

Spoiler: America

Correct prediction on how America and China fought. The Qing had the bigger navy but it was spread further. It wasn't the bloodiest war and left fewer bad feelings but the naval stalemate and role of Japan set the eastern frontier for the "Cold War". Ever since the Qing have kept a navy big enough to fight America and Europe at the same time, which is not as hard as it would be in real life but still something they have to work at.

The Qing are still absolutely the dominant power with pretty much the whole global system centering on them, but America is strong enough to keep them from landing on the contiguous 48 states and can project power. Basically OTL 2010s China but with less corruption and a war better military.

Well jeez, so the Cold War was basically with the blocs of 1984: Eastasia, Eurasia, and Oceania.

 

[Canopus108]

What was the impetus for bringing in (I'm assuming limited-franchise) electoral democracy rather than continuing as an imperial autocracy? Am I right in assuming the 'council' is a Parliament analogue?

It is - the Grand Council was originally the Privy Council to advise the emperor but it evolved into a full legislature. Constitutionally the Great Qing resemble Britain, with no written constitution and an emphasis on precedent, and part of that is that technically the legislature is still reliant on royal confirmation.

The main cause of electoral democracy was a) backlash to reforms that trod on traditional privileges b) the growing complexity of government in the 1800s c) foreign trade and domestic industry building a middle class and d) the Daoguang Emperor being a nice guy who, while not as competent as his predecessors basically inherited a pretty cruisy situation. It did start as limited-franchise to the nobles and scholars, but now has universal suffrage after 25.

Well jeez, so the Cold War was basically with the blocs of 1984: Eastasia, Eurasia, and Oceania.

That's...disconcertingly accurate. Hmm. Maybe everything just turns into 1984 over time. Well the main differences are

Spoiler: Cold War

Ultramodernist and republican continental Europe is firmly in the American sphere, and West Asia and parts of north Africa are in the Qing sphere. Also the world is much more developed and generally some form of democracy, except the aforementioned Ultramodernists who formed as a reaction to Qing power and the World War/the later European War. Parts of Africa and the middle east are less developed but overall ITTL is better than OTL

 

[HIM Dogson]

So I take it that the list of Emperors is the same as otl- does that mean that Cixi also was Empress Dowager? Otl Puyi only became emperor because she wanted someone easy to manipulate, but I guess Guangxu reigned a lot longer here

So is America a dictatorship then, if the "ultramodernists" are in charge of the west? I do think that the Progressive movement of Teddy Roosevelt could have fairly easily gone very authoritarian in response to the Depression had FDR not been the focus of its politics

 

[Canopus108]

So I take it that the list of Emperors is the same as otl- does that mean that Cixi also was Empress Dowager? Otl Puyi only became emperor because she wanted someone easy to manipulate, but I guess Guangxu reigned a lot longer here

It more or less is the same list until the 1860s - same regnal names (because every time I suggest a fictional one for Yuzhang my Chinese friends make a disgusted expression) and roughly the same relationships. Dates are drastically different though.

The OTL succession breaks down at Xianfeng since he lives way longer, and the role the equivalents of Tongzhi, Guangxu and Puyi are very heavily spoilers and probably the most radically different from OTL. For anyone wanting the Qing to face a fair fight - this is when the golden age ends.

The selection of Puyi was a little complicated in OTL - Puyi was chosen because Cixi knew she wouldn't live much longer and wanted Zaifeng/Prince Chun to be regent. Zaifeng was something of a rising star and once Cixi blocked him from becoming a threat she actually saw him as a protege or successor. Zaifeng was a capable leader and trusted to continue moderate post-Boxer reform - even after the end of the Qing he was considered a respectable figure by multiple factions.

So is America a dictatorship then, if the "ultramodernists" are in charge of the west? I do think that the Progressive movement of Teddy Roosevelt could have fairly easily gone very authoritarian in response to the Depression had FDR not been the focus of its politics

Spoiler: Spoilers

America is not an ultramodernist country but they are allies by default. The equivalent bust to the Great Depression did radically change their politics though but America is not bad any more than the Qing are utopian.

If people are curious I can move up the info about the Ultramodernists or Americans on the schedule. I worry that lacking a focused on point in time will confuse people - the downside of the story structure - so I'm thinking to mainly focus on the broad trends before I do any more profiles or narrative scenes

 

[PrinceofApathy]

I assume the Qing don't have a good relationship with the Christians? Also, do the Jews still have priests?

Technically yes, we have Cohanim. Descendants of the priestly caste who have certain privileges and restrictions, but no real authority other than doing the Priestly Blessing (i.e getting up called first to read the Torah, and not being allowed to marry a convert). They're more like Hindu Brahmins than Catholic priests, but in practice its the rabbis who call the shots