Charles I will go for "Roi de toute le Lorraines" or something like that but starting with Charles II they will use "Roi de Lorraine"
A reborn Lotharingia - A Renaissance TL
- Thread starter isabella
- Start date
Yes, as the main problem of Edward IV is finding another groom worth of her rank for Elizabeth as replacement for the Dauphin not renouncing to the french gold (something who both Louis XI and Charles the Bold know very well). Once Maximilian is on the table Edward will happily join the anti-French league as recovering more lands around Calais is a good objective (as is guaranteeing Anne's future in Lotharingia once he does not need to worry about that of Elizabeth).
Also right now Maximilian need a bride ready to give him an heir and has no need of another big dowry and is likely who Charles will pay part of that of Elizabeth in exchange for his brother-in-law and former son-in-law's commitment to his anti-French league (and he will get it... Anne de Beaujeu will be rather unhappy at the start of her regency)
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Even in German one can distinguish between Lotharingia using Lotharingien and Lorraine with Lothringen.
In Dutch there are a few varieties as well. It’s antiquated, but (Upper) Lorraine could be referred to as Lorreinen. The Dutch name for Lothier is Lotryk, btw France is named Frankrijk in Dutch, so Lotryk would most likely have evolved in or something similar as Lotrijk.
Lotharingia is Lotharingen in Dutch, and Upper and Lower Lorraine are Opper and Neder Lotharingen.
The only concern with this scenario is, why wouldn't the Emperor grant a Royal Crown for an Imperial fief, like Bohemia. They certainly wouldn’t give away suzerainty over all those lands.
Finally, why can’t Maximilian an Mary have a long and successful marriage for a change?
Edit:typo
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Habsburgs themselves lacked hereditary royal title at the time and also lacked Electoral vote before they get Bohemian throne in 1526, so by giving rulers of Lorraine-Burgundy Royal title and electoral vote they'll elevate them above themselves. If that was so easy for Emperor to create new kingdoms and electorates Austria would be first to be elevated to Royal status.
Because Charles the Bold is willing to pay a lot for an independent realm and Frederick need money (plus here there is a little boy between Maximilian's future son and that crown so both Charles and Frederick are persuaded to get the better deal).
Sooner or later I will do something (at least a tree) with Maximilian and a longer living Mary as that would be a big game changer...
Lotharingia will NOT have any electoral vote AND Frederick can do it because is the restoration of an old crown (and he is no so secretly hoping who young Charles will not live long, leaving the crown to Maximilian and Mary's future son).
The Emperor can not and will not grant away a part of the Empire, neither the Electors nor the entire Imperial Diet will give their consent for this. Frankly it is a valid ground to depose the Emperor and elect an Anti-King/Anti-Emperor. No the best the Emperor could and would be willing to offer, is a kingdom with the same status as Bohemia. Very autonomous (only the other Prince Electorates came close to their position), but technically still an Imperial Fief.
So instead of holding a lot of different Imperial fiefs, they could all become part of one Imperial fief, the restored kingdom of Lotharingia.
This 'restored' Lotharingia, will like OTL Bavaria (they lost theirs to Bohemia and in a way The Palatinate), be very determined to get an Electoral vote though.
Edit: looks like I made a typo in my previous post. Frederick III could grant a Crown for a kingdom like Bohemia, but wouldn't turn it into an independent kingdom.
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Oh, you have mistaken my words: what Charles the Bold want is a realm independent from France not from the Empire. ATL Lotharingia (who include all the lands of Charles plus Lorraine) will be part of the Holy Roman Empire at least de jure (de facto is a different thing and is unlikely who Lotharingia will ever be so interested in getting an electorate). Maximilian will never be King (other than King of the Romans, naturally) but one of his sons (not his heir) will be King and I do not exclude who a grandson will get another crown
They're distinguished today, they weren't distinguished at the time. That's why it's important they not be distinguished in this TL.
I'm rather miffed I didn't think of the toutes Lorraines solution myself 😁
Charles I and Louis XI 1482-1483
The tragic and improvvise death of Mary of Burgundy destroyed the happiness of her family (and dashed all the hopes of Emperor Frederick in having one day his own grandson as heir of Lotharingia) but unlike what many would have thought do not destroyed the bonds between Maximilian and his former father-in-law or the one with his stepson.
Sure Maximilian had returned in Austria, after his wife’s death, but without any intention to broke the bonds with her family and while he would remarry soon, like his father was loudly asking since his return in Vienna (and as that was only two months after Mary’s death, the request had done nothing for repairing the strained relationship between father and son), the Emperor would have no part in the choice (as Maximilian vetoed him to arrange his next wedding), unlike the French King Louis XI (who would deeply regret in the latest months of his life the part he played in Maximilian’s remarriage).
Louis XI of France was used to interfere in the affairs of Burgundy (and Lorraine) and was rather unwilling to accept the fact who he had no authority over the Kingdom of Lotharingia so after the death of Mary (and Maximilian’s departure), he returned at the attack, trying to bully his now fellow King Charles in accepting again him as overlord and pretending a wedding for his son, the Dauphin, to princess Isabelle, with a lot of lands as dowry for the bride (but he would be willing to accept also Archduchess Marguerite, naturally with the same dowry) mistakenly believing who the death of his daughter had finally broken Charles the Bold. While was true who the death of his daughter was an hard blow for Charles I, seeing his old rival menacing again his lands and their independence, had the unexpected effect of bring quickly the King of Lotharingia out of his mourning and push him to plan once for all the ruin of the Spider King.
The only problem was who he needed allies for doing that and while he was sure to being able to count on Maximilian and also of the support of the Duke of Brittany and other French nobles, he needed also to bring in his English brother-in-law, whose interest was in marrying adequately his two elder daughters (as Cecily’s Scottish betrothal was always uncertain and Louis XI’s used Elizabeth’s engagement to his son as mean for controlling Edward).
Louis XI’s intention to get one of his granddaughters as bride for the Dauphin removed half of Charles‘ problem (for getting Edward‘s agreement to another war) and he had a good idea for the other half so he wrote some letters, and pretended to be still too distraught for rebuffing Louis’ initiative and protect his lands and heirs.
As he had guessed Maximilian was enraged as him and willing enough to play his part, so the only thing still missed was Louis XI falling in his trap and making that fatal mistake who Charles was hopefully waiting.
Sure Maximilian had returned in Austria, after his wife’s death, but without any intention to broke the bonds with her family and while he would remarry soon, like his father was loudly asking since his return in Vienna (and as that was only two months after Mary’s death, the request had done nothing for repairing the strained relationship between father and son), the Emperor would have no part in the choice (as Maximilian vetoed him to arrange his next wedding), unlike the French King Louis XI (who would deeply regret in the latest months of his life the part he played in Maximilian’s remarriage).
Louis XI of France was used to interfere in the affairs of Burgundy (and Lorraine) and was rather unwilling to accept the fact who he had no authority over the Kingdom of Lotharingia so after the death of Mary (and Maximilian’s departure), he returned at the attack, trying to bully his now fellow King Charles in accepting again him as overlord and pretending a wedding for his son, the Dauphin, to princess Isabelle, with a lot of lands as dowry for the bride (but he would be willing to accept also Archduchess Marguerite, naturally with the same dowry) mistakenly believing who the death of his daughter had finally broken Charles the Bold. While was true who the death of his daughter was an hard blow for Charles I, seeing his old rival menacing again his lands and their independence, had the unexpected effect of bring quickly the King of Lotharingia out of his mourning and push him to plan once for all the ruin of the Spider King.
The only problem was who he needed allies for doing that and while he was sure to being able to count on Maximilian and also of the support of the Duke of Brittany and other French nobles, he needed also to bring in his English brother-in-law, whose interest was in marrying adequately his two elder daughters (as Cecily’s Scottish betrothal was always uncertain and Louis XI’s used Elizabeth’s engagement to his son as mean for controlling Edward).
Louis XI’s intention to get one of his granddaughters as bride for the Dauphin removed half of Charles‘ problem (for getting Edward‘s agreement to another war) and he had a good idea for the other half so he wrote some letters, and pretended to be still too distraught for rebuffing Louis’ initiative and protect his lands and heirs.
As he had guessed Maximilian was enraged as him and willing enough to play his part, so the only thing still missed was Louis XI falling in his trap and making that fatal mistake who Charles was hopefully waiting.
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My (un)educated guess: Charles.
Also one of the tags for this thread says "Burgundian Wank" soo.
Yes, I was pretty implicit in the post.
As Burgundian wank I think who incorporating the lands of Lorraine and getting a royal title is already a wank (the lands who the Spider King want as dowry for his son are the Artois, Vermandois, Boulogne and Picardy and the last two will not be Burgundian for much longer)
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Edward IV decided to act 1483
While Louis XI was likely close to do on his own that fatal step, Edward IV had received by his brother-in-law Charles proof of Louis XI’s proposed match between the Dauphin and Isabelle of Lorraine (who were formally engaged to Edward’s own eldest daughter and son) and he judged the insult done by the French King to himself and his children was too big so he confronted the French King asking explanations instead of waiting for the formal break-up of Elizabeth’s engagement and gave orders to his men to get ready for war as he had all the intention to avenge that insult with blood.
While his brother was getting ready for the oversea war, Gloucester was trying to keep control on the internal situation: Scotland was likely to be a trouble as always but hopefully the internal conflict between James III and his brother Alexander of Albany would keep them inside their own borders and in any case he would remain behind in England for guarding the borders and everything else.
“I swear who I have never see Edward so furious, as he was when your husband revealed him Louis XI’s plans, not even when George and Warwick allied with Marguerite of Anjou. He scared everyone and only his wife was so brave to affront him and help me to persuade our brother to direct his energies in planning the war. I hope who your Charles knew what he was doing when he sent that letter to Edward.” excerpt from a letter of Richard, Duke of Gloucester to his sister Margaret, Queen of Lotharingia.
While his brother was getting ready for the oversea war, Gloucester was trying to keep control on the internal situation: Scotland was likely to be a trouble as always but hopefully the internal conflict between James III and his brother Alexander of Albany would keep them inside their own borders and in any case he would remain behind in England for guarding the borders and everything else.
“I swear who I have never see Edward so furious, as he was when your husband revealed him Louis XI’s plans, not even when George and Warwick allied with Marguerite of Anjou. He scared everyone and only his wife was so brave to affront him and help me to persuade our brother to direct his energies in planning the war. I hope who your Charles knew what he was doing when he sent that letter to Edward.” excerpt from a letter of Richard, Duke of Gloucester to his sister Margaret, Queen of Lotharingia.
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Not sure if affront implies what you meant it to. "Affront" means to insult. Was that what you wanted to express?
Corrected. What do you think of the events? Edward reacted instead of waiting but that was quite in character for him...
Looks like Louis will be in trouble, it's time the spider king get strangled with his own web... Great job!
Eh, eh... He has made the fatal mistake of underestimate his enemies (Charles and Edward) and now he will pay for it, but he has still not yet learned the lesson
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Louis XI continued to plot 1483
Once he received the angry letter of Edward IV, Louis XII understood who he had underestimated both Charles and Edward, but still tried to pacify the English King, denying strongly his tentative to replace Elizabeth of York with Isabelle of Lorraine as bride for his heir (arriving at the point to say who he had proposed only a match between Archduchess Marguerite and his grandson the Count of Clermont*) and started to search another better bride for his son (he had already taken in consideration the heiress presumptive of Brittany, but she was too young and was still possible who she would be displaced by a younger brother and was daughter of another of his enemies so was not worth), sending an message to his younger sister Madeleine, proposing a betrothal between her daughter, Catherine (who had recently inherited the crown of Navarre after the death of her brother) and the Dauphin.
He hoped in a quick positive answer as Madeleine’s brother-in-law was claiming the crown against his niece (supported by his own brother-in-law, Louis’ own ungrateful son-in-law Orléans).
*try to guess Edward IV reaction to that blatant lie? I will say only who Gloucester was close to throw the messenger (and the French ambassador) out from the palace.
He hoped in a quick positive answer as Madeleine’s brother-in-law was claiming the crown against his niece (supported by his own brother-in-law, Louis’ own ungrateful son-in-law Orléans).
*try to guess Edward IV reaction to that blatant lie? I will say only who Gloucester was close to throw the messenger (and the French ambassador) out from the palace.
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Louis is trying to cover himself but it won’t work. Just as well, his schemes are finally catching up with him.
Exactly. In any case the only effect of his latest scheme is who both Edward IV and Gloucester want his blood now...