A Pre-Columbian North American Timeline Planning Thread

Should I Write This Timeline?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 29 93.5%
  • No!

    Votes: 2 6.5%

  • Total voters
    31
  • Poll closed .
Hey everyone! It's been a while.

I'm really close to releasing the timeline (probably next weekend), but one thing that's really been a barrier for me is coming up with a good title.

Of course, I could go the easy way and title it "Lands of X and X", but that's been done to death by this point.

I'm bad at coming up with names, but the one I have so far is "Upon the Waters: A History of Borealamerica and Beyond" or something to that effect.

So what do you guys think? Any better suggestions?
 
"Upon the Waters: A History of Borealamerica and Beyond"

I like it ! :cool: We've had a fair few more developed-agriculture-and-tech timelines for Native American cultures, but the more, the merrier.

Also, give the Amerindians crossbows. :D I sooo want to see that in a "more advanced pre-Columbian Americas" timeline. They're not actually that complex weapons to devise, even without bronze or iron metallurgy. You can do a lot with just wood, selfbows or composites, and some tying materials. They can even work without nuts and more complex levers, if you look at some of the simpler or more archaic trigger systems (a lot of the simplest crossbow locks are literally just wooden pegs or levers lifting bowstrings from a cutout section). I wouldn't be surprised if Amerindians figured them out on their own over the centuries, through a trial-and-error process.

(I myself have this not yet finished AH short story about an Eastern Woodlands native bowyer inventing a simple crossbow when something goes awry while he's tillering an ordinary bow on a tillering post or tillering tree. And that gives him an idea... He eventually creates a "post-bow" or "tiller-bow", very similar to a simple Eurasian or African all-wooden crossbow, and the idea eventually spreads.)
 
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I was thinking about a title that goes like this. ''A Continent remade or the second genesis.'' Also how advanced will native metal working get in this timeline?
 
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I like it ! :cool: We've had a fair few more developed-agriculture-and-tech timelines for Native American cultures, but the more, the merrier.

Thanks! Hopefully my TL will live up to the bar set by its predecessors.

Also, give the Amerindians crossbows. :D I sooo want to see that in a "more advanced pre-Columbian Americas" timeline. They're not actually that complex weapons to devise, even without bronze or iron metallurgy. You can do a lot with just wood, selfbows or composites, and some tying materials. They can even work without nuts and more complex levers, if you look at some of the simpler or more archaic trigger systems (a lot of the simplest crossbow locks are literally just wooden pegs or levers lifting bowstrings from a cutout section). I wouldn't surprised if Amerindians figured them out on their own over the centuries, through a trial-and-error

Interesting. I could definitely see it happening, and in the context of TTL there's a culture that would be perfect for the invention of the crossbow. I'll see what I can do. ;)

I was thinking about a title that goes like this. ''A Continent remade or the second genesis.''

Good suggestion, though I would prefer something a bit more flowery, for lack of a better word.
 
Interesting. I could definitely see it happening, and in the context of TTL there's a culture that would be perfect for the invention of the crossbow. I'll see what I can do. ;)

I think me and the others loaded that thread with OTL comparisons and nitpicky speculation for basically every possible aspect you could look at, concerning that very specific topic. The hunting, social and military repercussions, the construction and performance limitations and drawbacks if bronze or iron metallurgy is never invented, etc.

You also might find this wiki overview useful. I made it last year, after realising all our archived PODs on Native American cultures were scattered throughout the wiki and there was no single central article. Hopefully it can help a little while looking at various ATL aspects.
 
Also how advanced will native metal working get in this timeline?

They'll take better advantage of copper than the Old Copper Complex did in OTL (I have a chapter planned with the details of the encounter between them). Obsidian will also be important, though not commonplace. They'll discover arsenical bronze, and this will be the most common alloy across Borealamerica (in the early periods, that is).

As far as weapons go, we'll see a greater emphasis on spears, axes (polearms, halfberds), and the like. Swords won't be too common. I'll cover the specifics in the TL.
 
I think me and the others loaded that thread with OTL comparisons and nitpicky speculation for basically every possible aspect you could look at, concerning that very specific topic. The hunting, social and military repercussions, the construction and performance limitations and drawbacks if bronze or iron metallurgy is never invented, etc.

Definitely lots of butterflies to explore. Out of curiosity, are you planning on posting that short story about the topic anytime soon?

You also might find this wiki overview useful. I made it last year, after realising all our archived PODs on Native American cultures were scattered throughout the wiki and there was no single central article. Hopefully it can help a little while looking at various ATL aspects.

I've checked out that entry many times in the past, it's been very helpful. Many thanks.
 
How far will you take this project? At what point in history will you plan to cover, cause I'd be really interested to see how much better the Natives fared in time periods beyond the colonial era, what would the 1800's, 1900's, world wars (if any), and the modern era look like technologically, culturally and pop culturally. In OTL, some countries with majority native populations have been westernized (Meiji Japan) and/or have been strongly influenced by European politics (British India), while others have resisted European colonization almost completely (Thailand), or retained much of their culture regardless of how much European colonialism there was (China). Will we have something similar in N. America, and which Native cultures will eventually become a world power? (you don't have to answer that last one, spoilers).

You stated that there will be some European settlement in the Americas, but will there be some N. American settlement in (or at the very least, immigration to) Eurasia as well? Algonquians and Arawaks might have an overseas diaspora; with both those people living at the Atlantic coast, the Northeast Algonquian woodlands being the shortest distance from N. America to Europe (which is just on the other side of the sea), the Arawak historical pre-contact experience with transcontinental sailing, and the possibility of Algonquian and Arawak shipbuilding and navigation improving a lot after interaction with European ships and sailors.
 
How far will you take this project? At what point in history will you plan to cover, cause I'd be really interested to see how much better the Natives fared in time periods beyond the colonial era, what would the 1800's, 1900's, world wars (if any), and the modern era look like technologically, culturally and pop culturally. In OTL, some countries with majority native populations have been westernized (Meiji Japan) and/or have been strongly influenced by European politics (British India), while others have resisted European colonization almost completely (Thailand), or retained much of their culture regardless of how much European colonialism there was (China). Will we have something similar in N. America, and which Native cultures will eventually become a world power? (you don't have to answer that last one, spoilers).

You stated that there will be some European settlement in the Americas, but will there be some N. American settlement in (or at the very least, immigration to) Eurasia as well? Algonquians and Arawaks might have an overseas diaspora; with both those people living at the Atlantic coast, the Northeast Algonquian woodlands being the shortest distance from N. America to Europe (which is just on the other side of the sea), the Arawak historical pre-contact experience with transcontinental sailing, and the possibility of Algonquian and Arawak shipbuilding and navigation improving a lot after interaction with European ships and sailors.

With the TL coming closer to it's release, i'll make some risky predictions ;)

1. A Guarani Kingdom will pull a Meiji and fight off the europeans of the Plata Basin with help of Charrua mercenaries :rolleyes:
2. We'll see a battle between swiss and charrua mercenaries :cool:
3. The arrival of Colombo will be a shock to the american world, since the Taino will have a lot of contacts around the continent o_O
4. The context of the 3. will turn in a Taino-led coalition of american something-doms
5. Some taino state will defect to the europeans because reasons (aka commercial rivalries)
6. F**k it, the Amazon Basin will be the american India in terms of population :p
 
How far will you take this project? At what point in history will you plan to cover, cause I'd be really interested to see how much better the Natives fared in time periods beyond the colonial era, what would the 1800's, 1900's, world wars (if any), and the modern era look like technologically, culturally and pop culturally. In OTL, some countries with majority native populations have been westernized (Meiji Japan) and/or have been strongly influenced by European politics (British India), while others have resisted European colonization almost completely (Thailand), or retained much of their culture regardless of how much European colonialism there was (China).

The plan is to hopefully cover stuff up to present day. This far into the future of the TL I only have broad strokes down, since knowing me the things I have planned will probably change. But I can say that we won't see natives suffering the same fate they did in OTL, though I admit that's a very low bar.

Will we have something similar in N. America,

Without saying too much, yes, we'll have majority native states.

and which Native cultures will eventually become a world power? (you don't have to answer that last one, spoilers).

Yeah, I'll keep my mouth shut on this.

You stated that there will be some European settlement in the Americas, but will there be some N. American settlement in (or at the very least, immigration to) Eurasia as well?

Immigration definitely, but nothing like native colonies propping up in Europe.

Algonquians and Arawaks might have an overseas diaspora; with both those people living at the Atlantic coast, the Northeast Algonquian woodlands being the shortest distance from N. America to Europe (which is just on the other side of the sea), the Arawak historical pre-contact experience with transcontinental sailing, and the possibility of Algonquian and Arawak shipbuilding and navigation improving a lot after interaction with European ships and sailors.

Something like that, though this will happen much later into the post-Columbian period.

With the TL coming closer to it's release, i'll make some risky predictions ;)

Can't say anything, so I'll leave you to ponder if they'll come true to yourself. :p
 
A random thought--if the PoD is in New England, will modern New Hampshire and Maine be the site of major centers along the lakes there (i.e. Moosehead Lake, Sebago Lake, Lake Winnipesaukee, etc.)? Or other New England lakes, like Lake Champlain, or in the Connecticut River Basin lakes like New Hampshire's Lake Sunapee. OTL these lakes were and still are host to resort towns, and their outflow rivers powered mill towns which at one point helped drive New England industry which became the basis of the United States itself. If your Amerindians have the wheel, this will be an important area as it was for Euroamericans, since the lakes will have lots of fish to gather (although you don't need the wheel to harvest lots of fish from those lakes). New England's lakes and ponds, let alone the rivers, could serve important sites of food production (i.e. floating gardens/chinampas).

Of course, I could go the easy way and title it "Lands of X and X", but that's been done to death by this point.
Agree, it's kind of cliche at this point. Although like any cliche, it exists for a reason (LoRaG and Ice and Mice are legendary and get brought up in other forums). But it does give the audience an idea of what to expect, and there isn't any TL using a "Lands of X and Y" formula currently running.

I'm bad at coming up with names, but the one I have so far is "Upon the Waters: A History of Borealamerica and Beyond" or something to that effect.

Wouldn't it be "Boreoamerica?" Although personally I've never liked the AH trope of renaming common things and places unless it can be justified in the setting (which puts me in a cold sweat when it comes to scientific concepts and units of measure named after OTL scientists--can't have watts, newtons, volts, or degrees Fahrenheit/Celsius, let alone something like Hawking radiation!).

For my own TL, A Horn of Bronze, I ended up with an abstract name--"horn" because reindeer and mountain goats, essential to the TL, have horns, "bronze" because it makes the audience expect a Bronze Age at some point, and at some point "horn" made me think of a horn of plenty, implying agricultural wealth. It also makes a good element for a personal name (like some great leader). An abstract and multifaceted name like that is always nice, although I don't know if I picked the best name for my TL.

I think me and the others loaded that thread with OTL comparisons and nitpicky speculation for basically every possible aspect you could look at, concerning that very specific topic. The hunting, social and military repercussions, the construction and performance limitations and drawbacks if bronze or iron metallurgy is never invented, etc.

That thread has lots of great information, I used it for my own TL. It's interesting why Amerindian crossbows ended up so restricted in distribution when they could be useful weapons for hunting small game or even larger game/warfare assuming poison tips, since it could be useful for children, women, the elderly, or the crippled. One can imagine a California Indian shooting squirrels with their crossbow while gathering acorns. Or a group of old men and women of some Coast Salish group in their fort shooting poison darts at hostile raiders who thought they'd have an easy raid since the men were away.
 
A random thought--if the PoD is in New England,

Minor nitpick: The main POD takes place in the Midwest (more specifically the Wabash River Valley), but *Algonquians will be mostly concentrated in the Northeast/Great Lakes region for reasons I'll cover in the TL.

will modern New Hampshire and Maine be the site of major centers along the lakes there (i.e. Moosehead Lake, Sebago Lake, Lake Winnipesaukee, etc.)? Or other New England lakes, like Lake Champlain, or in the Connecticut River Basin lakes like New Hampshire's Lake Sunapee. OTL these lakes were and still are host to resort towns, and their outflow rivers powered mill towns which at one point helped drive New England industry which became the basis of the United States itself. If your Amerindians have the wheel, this will be an important area as it was for Euroamericans, since the lakes will have lots of fish to gather (although you don't need the wheel to harvest lots of fish from those lakes). New England's lakes and ponds, let alone the rivers, could serve important sites of food production (i.e. floating gardens/chinampas).

Yes, you aren't too far off. The native economy of the Eastern Seaboard will be heavily reliant on maritime resources, and lakes will definitely be a prime spot for polities to emerge. Lake Champlain in particular will be the home of the first major civilization in the region, serving as an *Olmec analogue of sorts (though it's not a very good comparison for reasons I'll dive into ITTL). There'll be more emphasis on the river systems, with regionalization occuring due to groups adapting to different river systems (based on the OTL theory of regionalization on the Eastern Seaboard).

On the topic of aquaculture, we'll see fish farming in conjunction with wild rice paddies, but that's a whole other topic.

Agree, it's kind of cliche at this point. Although like any cliche, it exists for a reason (LoRaG and Ice and Mice are legendary and get brought up in other forums). But it does give the audience an idea of what to expect, and there isn't any TL using a "Lands of X and Y" formula currently running.

That is a good point, though it is a very high bar to live up to those timelines.

Wouldn't it be "Boreoamerica?"

I was thinking along the lines of Terra Australis becoming Australia. In this case it would be Terra Borealis (see Aurora Borealis and Aurora Australis) but instead of the -ia suffix I'm using -america since I'm describing a cultural area/region, such as Mesoamerica, Oasisamerica, and Aridoamerica. Plus, there's already a scenario using Boreoamerica involving Native Americans, so that would probably cause confusion.

Although personally I've never liked the AH trope of renaming common things and places unless it can be justified in the setting (which puts me in a cold sweat when it comes to scientific concepts and units of measure named after OTL scientists--can't have watts, newtons, volts, or degrees Fahrenheit/Celsius, let alone something like Hawking radiation!).

It's a huge challenge. I have a justification (excuse) prepared on why the continent is still called America ITTL.

For my own TL, A Horn of Bronze, I ended up with an abstract name--"horn" because reindeer and mountain goats, essential to the TL, have horns, "bronze" because it makes the audience expect a Bronze Age at some point, and at some point "horn" made me think of a horn of plenty, implying agricultural wealth. It also makes a good element for a personal name (like some great leader). An abstract and multifaceted name like that is always nice, although I don't know if I picked the best name for my TL.

It works pretty well. Personally I'm a fan of more poetic titles, so that might just be personal bias.
 
That thread has lots of great information, I used it for my own TL. It's interesting why Amerindian crossbows ended up so restricted in distribution when they could be useful weapons for hunting small game or even larger game/warfare assuming poison tips, since it could be useful for children, women, the elderly, or the crippled. One can imagine a California Indian shooting squirrels with their crossbow while gathering acorns. Or a group of old men and women of some Coast Salish group in their fort shooting poison darts at hostile raiders who thought they'd have an easy raid since the men were away.

Glad to hear that.

As to why the idea didn't develop or spread in OTL, I even talk about it in that thread. Without beasts of burden and wagons and roads for them, tech innovations tend to spread slower and remain more localised for a longer time. Additionally, the Inuit were isolated far in the north. Many of them probably didn't even know of all the people down south, given the sheer expanses of the Canadian tundra and taiga and the distance needed to cross them to more densely populated places. Either various cultures invent it on their own with a bit of good luck. Or it comes down south from Alaska, along the Pacific coast, through some convoluted way.
 
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Stretch

Donor
Maybe call it The Jungle Empire: Boreamerica and how the Amazon became stronk? (If you don't want the stronk part, you can replace it with 'the Southern Giant")
 
Speaking of New England how will it developed in this his timeline?

That's a very broad subject, with around 3,500 years of history to cover. But for now, I'll say that the region will be one of the first to benefit from agriculture and will develop a very distinctive subculture.

Also did you accept my idea for a Beothuk raiding culture in Newfoundland?

There'll be a raiding culture in Newfoundland, but not the Beothuk. I think I said something about who in a previous post, so there's that.

Maybe call it The Jungle Empire: Boreamerica and how the Amazon became stronk? (If you don't want the stronk part, you can replace it with 'the Southern Giant")

Cool title, but the Amazon won't really be the main focus of the TL (though the region will be important after the butterflies reach South America).
 
So are the raiders going to be Algonquins that's kinda boring asides islands would be excellent place for a language to hide from the expansionist Algonquins.
 
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