A Blunted Sickle - Thread II

[DracoLazarus]

If it comes to piecing apart Germany, I guess that Belgium might get Aachen since it is right next to Eupen-Malmedy. France would likely rewards itself with either Baden and Breisgau or a large Saarlands.
Although I think partition would be more appealing than annexations. Four or five competing territorially coherent Germanies could be preferable.

 

[Deleted member 90563]

All of the suggestions as to how to deal with Germany after the war is won are really great, and I'm sure they won't radicalise even the most moderate Germans. I imagine learning to pacify an increasingly hostile populace is something that will be helpful in suppressing independence movements all over the world.

 

[pjmidd]

In the 1940's the Allies did not believe there were any moderate Germans , they were all Nazi's. It was only at the time of the Korean War with the USSR seen as an existential threat that the PR machine kicked in to rehabilitate Germans. All that will be on France's mind is stopping round 4 ever happening and the French populace will be loudly screaming Versailles was too soft. It will be a harsh treaty if they have anything to do with it.

 

[avernite]

All of the suggestions as to how to deal with Germany after the war is won are really great, and I'm sure they won't radicalise even the most moderate Germans. I imagine learning to pacify an increasingly hostile populace is something that will be helpful in suppressing independence movements all over the world.

You don't pacify them, you give them the treatment Germans received on the eastern border after WW2: get out, this is our land now.

Various countries may do so at various levels of agreeability (with especially Denmark and the Netherlands quite possibly trying to convince some Germans they were really Danish/Dutch all along), but you don't annex vast swathes of Germany and then leave them full of Germans.

 

[Dageraad]

I shudder at the name Frisian island...

Well, actually, "shudder"

With only Texel in Allied hands and Harlingen (1) the only sizeable port in the Northern parts of the Netherlands it just might be feasible to invade Vlieland and Terschelling (orange arrows), as:
1: there are probably only token German units there
2: Harlingen can only be reached by seagoing vessels through the Vliestroom (2) , which is between those island.
3: Other routes to Harlingen are too shallow for seagoing vessels.
4: Harlingen has a railway connection and connects to the waterways, so it can be used as a transfer point. You won't get one nearer to Germany before reaching the German border.
5: Both locations can be approached by landing troops some distance away from the opposition.

 

[ALurker]

Why waste troops when the Germans are probably doing something useful like keeping order? A few MTBs would not go amiss to keep them pinned in place, but otherwise the islands are effectively a very nice, low security, POW camp.

 

[Guardian54]

Why waste troops when the Germans are probably doing something useful like keeping order? A few MTBs would not go amiss to keep them pinned in place, but otherwise the islands are effectively a very nice, low security, POW camp.

On a more chilling note, you don't have to feed these prisoners.

 

[Raunchel]

On a more chilling note, you don't have to feed these prisoners.

Or the civilians who live there. And when I have to guess who gets the food when you have armed soldiers and unarmed civilians, it's not a difficult guess.

 

[Grinner]

Or the civilians who live there. And when I have to guess who gets the food when you have armed soldiers and unarmed civilians, it's not a difficult guess.

Yes, it's be a similar situation to the Channel Islands, where they were basically starving until the Red Cross were able to get a ship through.

 

[Dageraad]

The German troops (500) at Vlieland locked all their handguns in a safe, gave the (Dutch) doctor the key to the safe and then had to wait three weeks until the Britisch army send an officer and two soldiers to finally accept the surrender.
Halfway the proceedings the doctor was called away for the birth of a child.
Its all a bit like 'allo 'allo.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

It must be tempting to try to run north and take Bremenshaven and then Hamburg. That would give you two more ports, allowing supply to press more deeply yet into the North German plain....

 

[Faeelin]

Yes, it's be a similar situation to the Channel Islands, where they were basically starving until the Red Cross were able to get a ship through.

Why would the Dutch let their people starve?

 

[Grinner]

Why would the Dutch let their people starve?

I thought we were talking about German held islands, and whether it was worth the allies capturing them. Probably got my geography confused, oops.

 

[avernite]

Why would the Dutch let their people starve?

I hardly think much starving will be necessary. Just tell the Germans 'look guys we got the land back, you can surrender and we will continue food shipments or we let you starve'.

Sure, it means you have to feed them and the islanders, but you can probably get away with not putting them in camps if you are desperately avoiding that (more likely, they just get shipped to Scotland or Canada).

 

[jayel]

the channel islands in question were English
https://www.google.com/search?q=uni....69i57j0l5.13027j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[Youngmarshall]

the channel islands in question were English
https://www.google.com/search?q=uni....69i57j0l5.13027j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

You've misunderstood the conversation.

The question was whether the dutch islands of Vlieland and Terschelling should be liberated by the allies or just skipped over while the allies push on towards berlin.

Somebody mentioned that one of the reasons to do so was to make sure the dutch civilians on those islands were fed. As when the british channel islands were under german occupation, the german soldiers made sure all food went to them and the channel islanders were starving.

As avernite said the problem will probably be resolved by cutting off the germans on the dutch islands and then the soldiers will happily surrender without you having to directly attack them.

 

[AlanJWhite]

As avernite said the problem will probably be resolved by cutting off the germans on the dutch islands and then the soldiers will happily surrender without you having to directly attack them.

OTL The Germans on the British Channel Islands were completely isolated by Autumn 1944
and yet they never surrendered ... or even offered to do so.

Instead the German Foreign Ministry suggested that the British could evacuate the women, children and old folk
which would of course leaving the occupiers in place along with all the men as hostages and forced labor
(and incidentally an improved food situation for defence).

The Island commandant refused even to discuss terms when approached directly.

Only in December 44 when the garrison itself was lacking food did they agree to Red Cross ships to feed the civilians
(which left more of the local sourced food for the occupiers of course)

Similar stories happened in Holland during the winter of 44-45.

The Nazis in both Holland and the Channel Islands only surrendered after the fall of Berlin and the signing of a formal capitulation.

So I doubt that even in ATL anything will come of offering the isolated garrisons of these islands a chance to give in without a national surrender.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Indeed, it was very hard to get them to give up.

Not sure a complete fubar situation in the 40s would make that much difference but it's possible a few more may be open to surrender without the more fanatical Nazis rising to high army command.

 

[torten]

That does seem pretty sensible. I suppose you could justify giving the Nelrods a refit, to take over the R class bombardment/escort duties, but I suppose a lack of speed is a problem, and post war, then crewing might start to become a problem.

Sorry to bump such a old post, but I came up with a solution to the issue of shore bombardment. If the RN wants to keep it, without having to risk a first-rate battleship they could get a couple of monitors, maybe three or four using the turrets used for the Vanguard OTL. Given the Swedes might be using 15 inch guns, and the French will have similar, then they might be able to retain some production of 15 inch shells, or they could reline the turrets to fire 14 inch shells.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

The Nazis in both Holland and the Channel Islands only surrendered after the fall of Berlin and the signing of a formal capitulation.

While not being in any way a supporter of what the German forces did under the Nazis I will point out that by not surrendering the Germans on the Channel Islands and in other cut off garrisons were doing no more than the duty expected of any countries armed forces. By not surrendering they were tying down resources that could otherwise have been used in the invasion of their country. They may not have been able to directly engage the Allies but they were a potential threat that had to be allowed for.