A Blunted Sickle - Thread II

[Gannt the chartist]

I managed to dig out an (alleged) photo of the weapon - given the rather limited data out there, for story purposes this the gun being talked about. The round was 9 x 66mm, so the whole round would be about 90mm long and the whole weapon a bit more than 1m long - overall pretty similar to the Bren gun it is replacing, but with a lot more punch for dealing with enemy vehicles armoured against rifle-calibre ammunition.
View attachment 296337

My head falls to the handlebars. Utterly pointless weapon. From the previous link.

'The machine gun of 9 mm Mle 37 MAC is a weapon purely dedicated to the anti-tank and antiaircraft mission and therefore only shoot P projections or TP with steel core or even tungsten. It is intended to equip each battalion with a section of 4 per unit replacing the 8 mm Mle 14 machine guns on Mle 28 extension (AC firing)....

The icing on the cake, in the report cited, the IEC raised the question as to whether one could pass the VI of the perforating 9 mm from 850 to 900 m / s, which appeared "the realm of the possible" despite A slight increase in pressure in the chamber.

For power mode:

The one per upper charger box as on the prototypes did not suit the CIS because it made the weapon too detectable and therefore vulnerable. Side feeding was desired with either:

- A lateral loader box including "camembert" type as on the MAC 31. The latter was little appreciated by the Infantry because too sensitive to the "external agents" and the shocks that put the cartridges in b .... Covered.

- A lateral feed per fabric band (type Vickers, Maxim)

- Side feed by metal strip with detachable links. The latter was preferred (including for the 7.5 mm). However, during tests, the detachable links were the source of numerous incidents because of bad manufacturing, the French steel makers then lacked the "turn of hand" to work fine steels. So much so that the possibility of "production abroad" was mentioned. The problem was finally resolved in 1938 with the Mle 34/39 MAC airplane machine gun powered by detachable link metal strips. It can therefore be considered that ultimately, this last mode of supply would have been retained at the end of 1940/1941 for the 9 mm (but also the 7.5 mm). But there, one enters an Uchronic even if it is more than probable' ...... There was also a projected 11mm version of the Mle 34/39 being worked on.

Essentially this is a 1920's french response to 13mm mgs being developed elsewhere with by 1940/41 a very marginal AT or AA capability and as an anti material weapon highly situational and suicidal whie mouted on a large poorly armoured target. As an MG the weight of ammo and recoil forces probably work against it being used like the bren and the dismount weight looks horrendous.

If you want an anti armour or anti material capability on a recon vehicle put a proper gun on it like the AEC in any turret variant including a 20mm ( OTL a prototype carried 2x20mm for AA but - no Luftwaffe.) or buy the Panhard 178 which comes with a 25mm or the EBR postwar.

If you really really need an out of date AT weapon in place of the Boys ( and lets face it the job of the Dingo in the face of opposition is to hide and run away not get into firefights.) Ask FN to speak to that nice Mr Browning and licence MA DEUCE which your air forces are already using.

If you want a better sniper weapon build a sniper weapon. If you want an anti material weapon rifle calibres are perfectly capable of killing horses which is the main German transport.

 

[pdf27]

Apologies, I missed (or forgot) the post(s) showing the accelerated development of something like the Burney 3.45" recoiless gun.
If in TTL the British have somehow solved the "wear" issues by summer '41,
then that's a big gain for a UC Platoon compared to OTL.. even if they only replace the Boys on a 1 for 1 basis.

That's the target - essentially it's what they adopt instead of the PIAT, driven by getting examples of Soviet recoilless rifles out of Finland which in OTL went to Germany. Not perfect, but good enough.

Using the MAC 37 in every the Dingo, rather than a 50:50 mix of Bren & Boys, will certainly give it sharper teeth
However I'm not sure how significant that is.

Not very - one thing I'm trying really hard to do is include a mix of insignificant changes that stay insignificant, insignificant changes that become huge, and big changes that really don't matter very much in the end. I'm also trying to include bad decisions because frankly any timeline that doesn't include them will fall over in the plausibility test.
Here, it's done because it is seen to be a hybrid of the Boys and Bren - good enough to take on enemy scout cars, but not enough for a tank: then again, the Boys wasn't really good enough for a tank any more either. It's also readily available from the French - so the biggest impact is probably political rather than technical or military

BTW do you know if the Dingo carried the High Power version allowing for better range back to base?

No idea, sorry.

My head falls to the handlebars. Utterly pointless weapon. From the previous link.

'The machine gun of 9 mm Mle 37 MAC is a weapon purely dedicated to the anti-tank and antiaircraft mission and therefore only shoot P projections or TP with steel core or even tungsten. It is intended to equip each battalion with a section of 4 per unit replacing the 8 mm Mle 14 machine guns on Mle 28 extension (AC firing)....

The icing on the cake, in the report cited, the IEC raised the question as to whether one could pass the VI of the perforating 9 mm from 850 to 900 m / s, which appeared "the realm of the possible" despite A slight increase in pressure in the chamber.
<snip>
Essentially this is a 1920's french response to 13mm mgs being developed elsewhere with by 1940/41 a very marginal AT or AA capability and as an anti material weapon highly situational and suicidal whie mouted on a large poorly armoured target. As an MG the weight of ammo and recoil forces probably work against it being used like the bren and the dismount weight looks horrendous.

So what? Firstly, every TL needs stupid decisions taken by the participants on occasion. Secondly, it's a self-defence weapon for a scout car - that means some sort of ability against infantry and light armoured vehicles (other scout cars) plus aircraft. No way in hell should you be shooting at tanks with it (the fact it can't engage a tank is almost a positive form that viewpoint)

If you want an anti armour or anti material capability on a recon vehicle put a proper gun on it like the AEC in any turret variant including a 20mm ( OTL a prototype carried 2x20mm for AA but - no Luftwaffe.) or buy the Panhard 178 which comes with a 25mm or the EBR postwar.

That happened anyway in OTL - this was given to the Dingos which had a Bren or Boys in OTL.

If you really really need an out of date AT weapon in place of the Boys ( and lets face it the job of the Dingo in the face of opposition is to hide and run away not get into firefights.) Ask FN to speak to that nice Mr Browning and licence MA DEUCE which your air forces are already using.

Really? So far as I was aware at the point of the POD the only .50 weapon in UK service was the .50 Vickers, not the .50 Browning. That's a very different beast, and far too big for a scout car.

If you want a better sniper weapon build a sniper weapon. If you want an anti material weapon rifle calibres are perfectly capable of killing horses which is the main German transport.

And if you want to bring obscure French calibres back from the dead just for the hell of it write them into your timeline

 

[Gannt the chartist]

That's the target - essentially it's what they adopt instead of the PIAT, driven by getting examples of Soviet recoilless rifles out of Finland which in OTL went to Germany. Not perfect, but good enough.


Not very - one thing I'm trying really hard to do is include a mix of insignificant changes that stay insignificant, insignificant changes that become huge, and big changes that really don't matter very much in the end. I'm also trying to include bad decisions because frankly any timeline that doesn't include them will fall over in the plausibility test.
Here, it's done because it is seen to be a hybrid of the Boys and Bren - good enough to take on enemy scout cars, but not enough for a tank: then again, the Boys wasn't really good enough for a tank any more either. It's also readily available from the French - so the biggest impact is probably political rather than technical or military


No idea, sorry.


So what? Firstly, every TL needs stupid decisions taken by the participants on occasion. Secondly, it's a self-defence weapon for a scout car - that means some sort of ability against infantry and light armoured vehicles (other scout cars) plus aircraft. No way in hell should you be shooting at tanks with it (the fact it can't engage a tank is almost a positive form that viewpoint)


That happened anyway in OTL - this was given to the Dingos which had a Bren or Boys in OTL.


Really? So far as I was aware at the point of the POD the only .50 weapon in UK service was the .50 Vickers, not the .50 Browning. That's a very different beast, and far too big for a scout car.


And if you want to bring obscure French calibres back from the dead just for the hell of it write them into your timeline

If you want it fair enough fair enough but the French have to develop it and the French have to have a requirement, they are the ones flying US aircraft. As it is the 9mm while an interesting cartridge is mounted on a weapon the French do not want, they want the belt fed version as a flak/AT not an MG. As flak it may have a place assuming they can solve the manufacturing issue which is reasonable in a wartime economy, magazine changes on the smaller box make it impractical as a flak weapon. But the bren or boys on the dingo is a dismountable weapon, any punch comes from the heavy A/C on the troop. A 45lb weapon is near double the weight of a bren or GPMG and a 2000 unit order is 1/3 of the entire production run.

There is a piece online about defending dingos from air attack, which generally consists of cover up and rely on the armour or get out and hide away from the attacker, who will be aiming at the vehicle.

Where british recce units upped firepower it was with double MG, large drum weapons you could fire from under armour or 20mm, or 75mm on half tracks.

 

[Karelian]

The armed forces had initially thought that strategic and tactical nuclear weapons would deter any attack on Sweden, but during the early 60s they (especially the air force) switched to think nuclear weapons would demand so much resources, especially in keeping any kind of delivery systems that could reliably get through Soviet defences up to date that they would sap substantial resources for the coventional armed forces and lower their ability to deter any invasion. It was also thought that having nuclear arms would invite a first-strike by the Soviets predating any conflict in an attempt to knock out any Swedish nuclear weapons.

Unfortunately a post-Winter War Finnish mindset to the issue without the Continuation War will be markedly different and less rational. Think Israeli nuclear doctrine. Come Hell or high water, the Finns would prefer the deterrence effect of nuclear weapons over the risk of being a target of a first strike as they'd most likely consider themselves to be among the top target list in any case. In addition they would want to avoid being target of nuclear blackmail at all costs.

If the Union survives, there's more resources to go around, and any delivery systems can be closer to the Soviet Union (and perhaps be a bit cheaper), but the original concerns will still be there - how much will nuclear weapons and especially the delivery systems cost the Union and how many armoured divisions or jet fighters could be had instead, and which would deter the Soviets more?

The idea of a "dissuasion du faible au fort"-type doctrine will feel really compelling, especially considering the fact that Union can never hope to compete with Soviets conventionally.

And since the security of Leningrad was the pretext of the attempted annexation in 1939, creating a genuine postwar threat of a nuclear annihilation of the aforementioned population center would be something so spiteful, that I'd actually think that the Finns would do their utmost to make this scenario a reality. This is thus a major issue for the postwar internal strategic debate of the Union.

It could happen since armed neutrality and Nordic cooperation will look like it worked with the Union (if the Soviets don't invade it, of course).

Yes, the ultimate outcome of the war in Europe and the fate of the Union itself is naturally a key question here.

 

[von Adler]

Unfortunately a post-Winter War Finnish mindset to the issue without the Continuation War will be markedly different and less rational. Think Israeli nuclear doctrine. Come Hell or high water, the Finns would prefer the deterrence effect of nuclear weapons over the risk of being a target of a first strike as they'd most likely consider themselves to be among the top target list in any case. In addition they would want to avoid being target of nuclear blackmail at all costs.



The idea of a "dissuasion du faible au fort"-type doctrine will feel really compelling, especially considering the fact that Union can never hope to compete with Soviets conventionally.

And since the security of Leningrad was the pretext of the attempted annexation in 1939, creating a genuine postwar threat of a nuclear annihilation of the aforementioned population center would be something so spiteful, that I'd actually think that the Finns would do their utmost to make this scenario a reality. This is thus a major issue for the postwar internal strategic debate of the Union.


Yes, the ultimate outcome of the war in Europe and the fate of the Union itself is naturally a key question here.

This is actually a very interesting question. Considering that the war will probably be over by Autumn 1942, there will be no test of an atomic bomb against an enemy, only tests in unhinabited areas. And will the Entente make their tests publically known, or will they try to keep their weapons development a secret? Nuclear weapons might not be seen as the end-of-all-weapons ITTL as they were OTL. The fact that the Entente actually has nuclear weapons might not be generally known until the end of the 40s, and it is probably not before that the Soviets will attempt to develop their own weapons (or at least give it a serious effort). Union development of nuclear weapons might thus start later and without the same urgency.

As for the Finnish "siege" mentality, it will be highly dependent on continued Soviet respsonse to the Union. Continued Soviet provocations and/or attempts to use loyal communist parties and others to drive a wedge between Sweden and Finland would probably weld the Union together. A more balanced Soviet position of accepting the Union and being non-belligrent in the Nordic countries might make the Union fall apart (it could keep together anyway, but it will be harder as the reason for Finland giving up their independent foreign policy will not be there to the same extent). If the Soviets lessen their provocations, the Finns might also see the Union as something that worked (in the sense of "we needed help, the Swedes came to our aid and the Soviets backed off, things are working!").

The Union acquiring nuclear weapons will be highly dependent on;

1. When it becomes publically known that there ARE nuclear weapons in the world (since the Entente, which are bound to be first, could keep them secret).

2. When the Soviets get to know 1. and start to develop their own.

3. Wether or not the lack of a live testing against a large civilian target as OTL changes the public perception around mutually assured destruction and nuclear weapons as a deterrance. After all, this war has shown that Douhet's theories were wrong, the French did not surrender just because the Germans bombed Paris. It is possible that a nuclear bomb is seen as just a large bomb ITTL and that the powers that be does not think dropping one will prevent nor deter an enemy with some resolve. If so, the costs of creating and maintaining atomic bombs and their delivery systems may seem as too costly for the benefits for anyone but the richest of grand powers (the kind that maintains fleets of battleships and carriers for power projection). ITTL, nuclear powers may be the same countries that develop and maintain a strategic bomber air force.

As for the Union policy on defence and deterrance, I think it would resemble the OTL Swedish cold war one - there's no chance of defeating a grand power that can dedicate all its resources and have enough resolve towards conquering the Union, but the Union can maintain a military strong enough to make it not worth the effort. The Winter War will probably be the model - be strong enough long enough for the grand power to lose its resolve in face of losses and international opinion.

 

[Faeelin]

Apologies for jumping in here, but I'd like to get people's thoughts.

I'm currently playing Hearts of Iron, and I've made it to the fall of 1940 as France. I feel that if France survives, it should get certain buffs to reflect its purchases from the Americans. Any thoughts on what that should look like?

 

[Artaxerxes]

Apologies for jumping in here, but I'd like to get people's thoughts.

I'm currently playing Hearts of Iron, and I've made it to the fall of 1940 as France. I feel that if France survives, it should get certain buffs to reflect its purchases from the Americans. Any thoughts on what that should look like?

Lend lease events certainly, with soviets getting less if they do get involved.

Possibly blueprints or support in Indo China, maybe a garrison

 

[Oldbill]

Faeelin,
IIRC the French will have, by the fall of 1940, an extensive stockpile of AP and AT mines, produced domestically. Add in domestically produced rifle grenades for AT, and quite a lot more of the excellent 25 and 47 mm ATG. They will have domestically produced a huge number of aircraft, and have as many more from US purchases. If the Italians don't enter the war, they may also get aircraft from them. From the US you can look forward to thousands of trucks and other automotive vehicles, the already mentioned aircraft, although AFV's won't be coming that soon. IIRC over on the "Axis History Forum" (a most excellent site, which I've found to be both very reliable and cordial) (http://forum.axishistory.com/ ) we discussed quite a lot of information in this vein. Try searching in the France 1919-1945 sub- forum. Additionally, re French Indochina, it is possible that with no Vichy, FDR will relent and give the French there the artillery, armor, aircraft and small arms that Gov. Gen. Catroux pleaded for IOTL. In that case, the French can expect 155's, 75's, various aircraft, small arms, and possible some of the US made M1917 6 ton tanks or even a few of the MkVIII Liberty's. Lots of possibilities, keep us posted on how the game turns out.
Regards, Bill

 

[Corax]

So is there a story only thread of some sorts ?

 

[pdf27]

No, and there won't be. I gave out .pdf copies of the story as a thank-you for donations to a charity I've been volunteering with for over a decade now when I did a sponsored cycle ride about 18 months ago now, so it feels like devaluing some extremely generous contributions by putting up a story-only thread.
If you want do donate and get a story-only copy for 1940, PM me. Otherwise, wait out - there's a good chance I'll be doing the cycle ride again this year (just need to convince myself I can actually do it!) and if so I'll be giving away both 1940 and 1941...

 

[Magyarország]

At this point, maybe it would be a good idea to edit the first post explaining the charity drive and that there won't be a story-only thread. I mean, how many times have you answered that question by now?

 

[pdf27]

A few. Doesn't bother me much though - I still get the odd donation coming in

 

[von Adler]

Faeelin,
IIRC the French will have, by the fall of 1940, an extensive stockpile of AP and AT mines, produced domestically. Add in domestically produced rifle grenades for AT, and quite a lot more of the excellent 25 and 47 mm ATG. They will have domestically produced a huge number of aircraft, and have as many more from US purchases. If the Italians don't enter the war, they may also get aircraft from them. From the US you can look forward to thousands of trucks and other automotive vehicles, the already mentioned aircraft, although AFV's won't be coming that soon. IIRC over on the "Axis History Forum" (a most excellent site, which I've found to be both very reliable and cordial) (http://forum.axishistory.com/ ) we discussed quite a lot of information in this vein. Try searching in the France 1919-1945 sub- forum. Additionally, re French Indochina, it is possible that with no Vichy, FDR will relent and give the French there the artillery, armor, aircraft and small arms that Gov. Gen. Catroux pleaded for IOTL. In that case, the French can expect 155's, 75's, various aircraft, small arms, and possible some of the US made M1917 6 ton tanks or even a few of the MkVIII Liberty's. Lots of possibilities, keep us posted on how the game turns out.
Regards, Bill

I think the French would not have any problems supplying French Indochina on their own in this scenario - by now the French are probably halfway through switching the old 75mm mle 1897 for the 105mm mle 1934 and mle 1935, which should free up a lot of 75mm mle 1897 to be used as AT guns, in tanks (the French had a very good track record with mounting new breeches on old guns and adapting them for more powerful ammuniton) or for secondary units such as colonial forces. Likewise, older planes such as the Hawk 75, the MB.151, the D.520 and the MS.406 fighters and a lot of bombers available.

Likewise the older infantry support tanks such as the Renault R.35 and Hotchkiss H.35 - still much more powerful than anything the Japanese would be able to muster - should be available in great numbers as the frontline forces in France use more modern vehicles.

 

[Oldbill]

"
I think the French would not have any problems supplying French Indochina on their own in this scenario - by now the French are probably halfway through switching the old 75mm mle 1897 for the 105mm mle 1934 and mle 1936, which should free up a lot of 75mm mle 1897 to be used as AT guns, in tanks (the French had a very good track record with mounting new breeches on old guns and adapting them for more powerful ammuniton) or for secondary units such as colonial forces. Likewise, older planes such as the Hawk 75, the MB.151, the D.520 and the MS.406 fighters and a lot of bombers available.

Likewise the older infantry support tanks such as the Renault R.35 and Hotchkiss H.35 - still much more powerful than anything the Japanese would be able to muster - should be available in great numbers as the frontline forces in France use more modern vehicles.


I think your right. There shouldn't be as much need for the US gear, available if desired I think but probably not needed.

 

[Thomas1195]

"
I think the French would not have any problems supplying French Indochina on their own in this scenario - by now the French are probably halfway through switching the old 75mm mle 1897 for the 105mm mle 1934 and mle 1936, which should free up a lot of 75mm mle 1897 to be used as AT guns, in tanks (the French had a very good track record with mounting new breeches on old guns and adapting them for more powerful ammuniton) or for secondary units such as colonial forces. Likewise, older planes such as the Hawk 75, the MB.151, the D.520 and the MS.406 fighters and a lot of bombers available.

Likewise the older infantry support tanks such as the Renault R.35 and Hotchkiss H.35 - still much more powerful than anything the Japanese would be able to muster - should be available in great numbers as the frontline forces in France use more modern vehicles.


I think your right. There shouldn't be as much need for the US gear, available if desired I think but probably not needed.

Japan would have fallen into a deadlock: French Indochina too heavily armed but the Japanese themselves run out of oil as well as forex to import oil.

 

[marathag]

with the Me-262 it is very questionable whether it got any benefits from sweepback

And Messerschmidt pretty much did it to settle Center of Gravity issues.

I think the big winner in the US Aeronautic area will be Consolidated Vultee, soon to be known as the better sounding Convair. Without a Japanese attack on Pearl, besides the B-36 program not being sidelined, they will be making both the Military and Civilian versions of the Model 31 Flying Boat, with the Navy buying the Prototype and arming the fitst Model 31, now called XP4Y Corregidor.

This was where the B-24 got its high efficiency Davis Wing from.

Orders for 200 were cancelled in 1942 from the B-29 program taking all the available Wright R-3350 engines. ITTL, would likely take over from the Boeing Clippers and get a different name, though would start with a 'C'

Also note the earlier versions of the R-3350 were far more reliable than the B-29 version, that was fed by dual GE turbochargers

 

[marathag]

by now the French are probably halfway through switching the old 75mm mle 1897 for the 105mm mle 1934 and mle 1935, which should free up a lot of 75mm mle 1897 to be used as AT guns, in tanks (the French had a very good track record with mounting new breeches on old guns and adapting them for more powerful ammuniton)

About the limit for that weapon could be seem with the developed, but never fielded HVAP version


It was the T45, which was fired at 2854 fps (75mm M72=2030fps, 76mm M93 HVAP=3412fps )


AP Performance/Range T45 vs homogenous armour at 30 degrees [75mm M72 AP] {76mm M79AP}

500 yards: 117mm [76mm] {109mm}
1000 yards: 97mm [63mm] {92mm}
1500 yards: 79mm [51mm] {76mm}
2000 yards: 64mm [43mm] {64mm}

So, that T45 HVAP makes the M3 75mm gun the equal of the 76mmA1 firing regular AP rounds

 

[pdf27]

29th August 1941

The first squadron of Westland Whirlwind autogiros enters service with the Army Air Corps in the Netherlands, replacing Lysander aircraft and allowing the squadron to be based much closer to the front lines and from smaller, more easily concealable fields.

On the outward leg of her first war patrol, U-576 torpedoes and sinks the light cruiser HMS Aurora 150 NM north-east of Tórshavn. The cruiser is providing escort cover to convoy QZ-24 returning from Narvik to Methil, but attacks by the escorting destroyers Glowworm, Grenade and Garm (ex-Griffin) force her to go deep and cause sufficiently heavy damage to her diesels that she is forced to abort her patrol and return to Trondheim.

In Athens, a number of masked men armed with rifles and PPD submachine guns blow down the gates of Syngrou Prison and release over 200 imprisoned communists. One guard is shot and seriously injured during the raid, with a further four being beaten by the attackers and two police shot dead when they try to intervene in the getaway.

In South America, Capitano Doglio of the Regia Aeronautica who is officially serving as an instructor with the Ecuadorian Air Force shoots down his fifth victim (a Caproni Ca.114), becoming the first Italian ace since WW1.
Meanwhile, on the ground the Peruvians have taken the town of Arenillas and have started to push up the road towards Santa Rosa, supported by a single LTP tank. The Ecuadorian forces defending Arenillas were in fact made up of a platoon of reserve infantry who were half-drunk by the time the Peruvians arrived, fired off most of their ammunition above the heads of the attackers (who responded in a similar manner) and then ran away home as soon as they started running out of ammunition. Both sides will report heavy fighting, but in fact the only victims of the fighting are a single Three-Toed Sloth hit by a burst of machine-gun fire and three Ecuadorians who will develop terrible hangovers by the following morning.

 

[Saphroneth]

That is a very funny little battle in Arenillas.

 

[pdf27]

Fairly typical for green troops - they're terrified (rightly so) and they almost always fire high. It is also a battle to which neither army has sent very good troops, hence the unfortunate sloth.