A Blunted Sickle - Thread II

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by pdf27, Nov 12, 2016.

  1. Eric S. Raymond Yeah, that guy.

    Jan 24, 2019
    United States
    There is a cluster of apparent in-jokes that keeps coming up on this thread around the "Unmentionable Pinniped" (which I gather is Operation Sealion), the Frisian Islands, and Heligoland. Take pity on a latecomer: is this the reference to an infamously bad AH it sounds like?
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  2. Orry Servant of the Lord of Mann Donor

    Apr 8, 2010
    In any AH victory of the UK over Germany Heligoland must become a British territory.........

    Likewise the Dutch must alway conduct an island hopping campaign along the coast ans claim all Fresian speaking lands for themselves
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  3. diestormlie <wit>

    Jan 4, 2014
    See Above
    There is an infamous TL (I have never seen it) that posits, I believe a landing in the Frisian Islands as opposed to D-Day.

    There are many reasons as to why this was never seriously considered OTL. Including, say, the fact that the short-ranged Spitfires couldn't actually conduct combat operations over the Frisian Islands.

    For this brave TLer, however, reality was no object! And nor was literally everyone telling him hiw he was wrong. In detail.
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  4. Moglwi Well-Known Member

    Jul 3, 2007
    Also there is a certain poster who has written a very good time or 2 on the uk keeping or getting back heligoland.
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  5. Xgentis Member

    Nov 18, 2010
    Belgium, Wallonia
    I am a veteran of the Frisian Islands thread, I have seen things...
  6. naraht Well-Known Member

    Dec 7, 2010
    Um. I think they've already invaded Germany. :)

    Oddly enough the Americans actually have that in American College Football called the Army-Navy game. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army–Navy_Game

    The difference is that the Japanese would use swords.

    Ah. So essentially the French are giving the Slovaks a choice. Who would you rather be allied with in 3 months, the Entente under Osusky , or the 3R under Tiso?

    I wonder if the comparison here is with Italy in WWI, who expected to be able to cash in the chips they had and still didn't get good value. Not sure that getting shafted would open the possibilities of going Pro-soviet through.

    I think it boils down to the US at this point can consider the *possibility* of being allied with the Entente fighting Japan, but can not picture the idea of the other way around. The Entente for the most part don't mind the Status Quo in East Asia. (iTTL, someone writes a 1930s punk that has Japan still fighting in China in the 1990s)
  7. fhaessig Member

    Jan 18, 2004
    Leiden ( Netherlands )
    two of them actually. Joffre and Painleve


    french version because the english one is ridiculously short
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  8. marathag Well-Known Member

    Feb 2, 2013
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  9. pdf27 Making sparks fly!

    Mar 8, 2007
    That depends how long after the PoD they have to use it for real. The longer they have to play with it, the more they're going to learn what it can do - even treating it as a super-lookout is a big improvement and not too far from their original doctrine.

    The French are pretty clear that the war is going to be over soon. Anybody not joining in the next couple of weeks is a wasted opportunity, and more of their men will die as a result.

    Independence isn't everything though, and Osusky is busy explaining that to them right now...


    The Army-Navy Rugby Match also exists. Rumours that the Navy team wear blue shirts to hide the blood are grossly exaggerated.

    With the caveat that they got halfway to Berlin in 2 days and would you please make up your mind about this one-time-only offer very quickly please.

    They're mostly worried about the First Vienna Award - given who made it and that the Czechs have been fighting the Nazis for a while now, they're feeling very nervous about being able to keep any of it. Jumping in before the war is too obviously over is their best chance.
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  10. KACKO Well-Known Member

    Dec 12, 2010
    Well Osusky needs to give them some guarantees. For leaders as well as for Slovaks as whole. Something which would be worth for them to fight for not just sit it over. After all why should some Slovak villager care about death Frenchmen in war which he has nothing with? It will be death Frenchmen not death Slovaks. Though there will be planty of those too as 1.CS Infantry Div had more Slovak soldiers then Czech.

    Leaders probably know Independence is over but what French and Osusky have to ofer for losing/ basically handing it away? Federation? Plebiscite (under French/ British patronage)on territories lost to Hungary? With Tiso unactive and army still not sold for action Osusky needs to leverage his explaining with some significant gains/ promises.
    Otherwise they will see it as fighting for no gains at all, actually fighting to lose what they had. If your option is doing nothing and losing or supporting somebody who make sure you are losing, then not as well just sit?

    But I guess I will eventually see what trick Osusky will pull from his hat.
    BTW What was Benes’s reaction to Osusky being flown to Slovakia by French?

    [QUOTE="pdf27, post: 18617423, member: 3503”]
    They're mostly worried about the First Vienna Award - given who made it and that the Czechs have been fighting the Nazis for a while now, they're feeling very nervous about being able to keep any of it. Jumping in before the war is too obviously over is their best chance.[/QUOTE]
    Well Czechoslovaks. ;)
    I am curious about Ruthenia though, especially with territories occupied by Hungary in March 1939 which were basically lacking any Hungarian minority.
    Poland as well as USSR wouldn’t be very happy with independent Ruthenian (Lemko, Ukrainian) state.

    Ruthenians are often forgotten even being claimed by Ukrainians as not being nation but creatures of Hungarians/ Czechoslovaks etc.
  11. naraht Well-Known Member

    Dec 7, 2010
    Given that the Army team wear red, I'm not sure why that would be a situation. (unless it is that the Navy are all blue blooded. :) ) The US Army Navy game is exclusively for the Academies, best example would be is if the Rugby game was Sandhurst v Dartmouth.

    Not sure if the one time offer includes Osusky as the new Head of State, but it does involve making some move with the Slovakian military *somewhere*

    Even if the British *do* run out of gas, the Slovakians aren't going to run into that problem very soon. Yes, the British are still closer to Berlin than the Slovak Military is, but at least the German forces were pointed west, the Slovaks are going to be fighting 3rd or 4th line troops....
  12. Mike D Well-Known Member

    Nov 30, 2013
  13. pdf27 Making sparks fly!

    Mar 8, 2007
    The Slovak villagers don't. The French very much do, and they (along with the British, who have very similar views) are sending Osusky along to - very politely - read the riot act to the Slovaks. If they try to sit out the war any longer, then there is the potential to see British and French troops helping the Czechs under Benes "re-establish order" in Slovakia and deal with the various Nazi collaborators they find. If they join in, then there is the potential to see Slovak troops in the Czech parts of the country helping to re-establish a government under Osusky.

    Because this is their last chance to snatch a compromise from the jaws of disaster. Sitting still will mean Slovak separatists being treated like Germans in the very near future...

    Why would they tell him yet? So far it's all sub rosa.

    That is still to be determined, depending on how well Osusky does...

    I think the Ruthenians are doomed to the status of bargaining chip...

    They like to think they are, at least. I will admit they're a step up on the Crabs.

    That's likely depend on how much moving they do.

    The Slovaks probably never had the petrol to start with, so will be purely foot and horse drawn.

    I had to google it. You do see a lot of rugby shirts about though, so it isn't implausible.
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  14. naraht Well-Known Member

    Dec 7, 2010
    Why would the Slovaks be denied Petrol? The Slovak would have been viewed as the second closest nation to the 3R diplomatically (surpassed only by Denmark which doesn't have any choice) but officially Neutral in the war. The Slovaks would been able to trade with nations that could sell them petrol, wouldn't be *that* constrained by anyone in what they can buy and sell and have probably been the county to make the most money smuggling in and out of the 3R.

    According to the Wikipedia article in Czech at the time of the invasion of Poland they apparently had a motorized unit with a company of tanks, a company of armored cards and a company of anti-tank guns later was reinforced by a platoon of tanks (so it had a total of 19 LT-35 tanks). Why would they have gotten rid of any of it?

  15. Mike D Well-Known Member

    Nov 30, 2013
    I always assumed it was some kind of WW3 contingency exercise - if we ever get nuked by Ivan and there's no government or chain of command left then the entire Army is to ERV at the Chapel and work everything out from there...
  16. KACKO Well-Known Member

    Dec 12, 2010
    This will be very stable Czechoslovakia. :)
    Well what they will do? Execute 50% of Slovak Population as Nazi collaborators? That was app. number of Slovaks which voted for HSLS pre war. What will be definition? Everybody involved with Slovak Republic government? Well again that will be tough and huge number. Even OTL when Slovakia collaborated much more with Nazis, majority of Slovaks were able to reenter Czechoslovak services, including military personnel. Including Jan Reznak, 32 victories from Eastern Front and guy couldn't even claim part in Uprising as he never made it (or didn't want to) to center of Uprising.

    And as you said in posts before hardly French or British will want to bleed to really help Czechs in prosecuting Slovaks. Can be used as a threat though.
    Prosecution of Slovaks will just bring very unstable Czechoslovakia.

    Disaster? Will they be expelled from Slovak territory? Will Allies sent them to concentration lagers or as communist did to Uranium mines in Sudetenland? Again this barely happened even OTL during communist!
    Either there will be Czechoslovakia or independent Slovakia. Slovaks were cheating and had chips in both sides. ;)

    I guess he will pretty well as one of your posts post war was talking about post war Czechoslovakia. ;)
    But anyway even with Slovak independents, it was still Czechoslovak government in exile. Only Czech government which existed was collaborating with Nazis in Protectorate. Czech Government army (app 6 battalions), Czech Police etc at Protectorate etc.

    However for Czechoslovakia to really have future Osusky needs to succeed. Slovakia may be even suppressed but without genocide, Slovaks will eventually try to separate again. How long can Czechs keep Slovaks suppressed. Even communist came with Federalization in 1968. And as history showed... Slovaks did it again.

    Poor bastards.

    Well there were 2 refineries in Slovakia - Apollo in Bratislava and one in Dubova plus some strategic reserves in central Slovakia. OTL used during Uprising.
    Slovak Romania relations were pretty good. Also there were oilfields close to Bratislava. Not big but I would guess big enough to supply military demand - Slovak army had only few units fully motorized.

    Slovakia had 49 or 50 LT-35 available, 17 OA vz30, 3 OA vz27, 27 LT-34 and 30 vz. 33 tanketts organized in tank regiment. In war against Poland only smaller armored contingents were used. Tank regiment had also some 228 trucks, 96 cars and 73 motorcycles. OTL in November 1940 21 LT-40 tanks were delivered (bit smaller version of LT-38 originally ordered by Lithuania) but not sure if delivery will happen ITL.

    For example Slovak Artillery regiment had 150 trucks, 5 tractors, 39 cars and 30 motorcycles. For sure not all artillery units had this number of vehicles though and infantry was far less motorized part.

    In 1941/42 motorized Slovak Fast Division did pretty well on Eastern Front (motorized infantry, artillery and elements of tank regiment).
  17. Eric S. Raymond Yeah, that guy.

    Jan 24, 2019
    United States

    Especially if playing Diplomacy.
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  18. KACKO Well-Known Member

    Dec 12, 2010
    Well Slovaks are definitely not going to Berlin. ;) In my opinion liberating Brno and pushing towards Prague would be max they could do. Maybe with some distraction towards Krakow and Auswitz.
    Also remember weather will be terrible soon.
  19. Decius00009 Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of chance

    Mar 21, 2016
    I assume the French will promptly wheel left and head straight for Nuremberg
  20. ngf Well-Known Member

    Sep 11, 2014
    In anticipation of a possible war between Japan and the Entente, I've created a map of the Chinese theater as of December 1941. The only difference from the OTL is that I show the Japanese still holding Nanning, in southern China near the border with FIC. The Japanese occupied Nanning in November 1939 to cutoff supplies from FIC to Kwansi Province and to provide an airbase for bombing the Haiphong-Kumming railroad inside China. In the OTL, the Japanese pulled back from Nanning by November 1940 after they occupied northern FIC and could cut supplies on the railroad directly. I make the assumption that ITTL that the Japanese would remain in Nanning to continue to bomb the railroad.

    I've also show the main base of the Chinese Communist Party and territory held by Yan Xiushan, a semi-independent warlord allied to the Nationalist Chinese government.

    It should noted also that unlike in the European theater, there is no continuous front. In the territory shown held by the Japanese, although they controlled the main cities and towns, they had only a very tenuous control over the country side.

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