A Blunted Sickle - Thread II

Take a look at how well that worked out for Holland in WW1. The Slovaks are to all intents and purposes inside the blockaded zone, the entente are well aware just how precarious the German fuel situation is and that if the Slovaks got some petrol the Germans would demand it.

It isn't canon until I publish it, and it was in a spoiler tag...


They might be able to hoard enough to run a short motorised campaign. The Romanians aren't going to be shipping them significant amounts of crude oil however - and the Gbely oil field appears to be tiny.
1. Very likely they will demand it. And very likely they will not get everything. What I heard it was pretty popular passtime among Slovak economists to cheat on supplies to Germany. Best was probably Karvas. Pro Czechoslovak economists who was so good Tiso wanted hin despite that. He basically siphoned to Central Slovakia money and supplies for Uprising. Cost him Rest of the war in KL and damaged health.

2. My mistake. I assumed once in spoiler it is set in stone. ;)

3. Indeed Gbely oilfield is tiny. App 40000 t a year was extracted during war. However automobilization in Slovakia was tiny too In 1938 some 21000 vehicles of all types. Which was 10% of vehicles in whole Czechoslovakia.

In 1938 Gbely produced 10% of Czechoslovak oil needs - at the time Gbely production was app 30000 t a year. So we can more or less assume Slovakia would be self sufficient in fuel. Of course there will be shipments to Germany. And of course something would be carefully stored away. Once supplies to Germany stop flowing - and this could happened for example right after Hungarians declare war, Slovak supplies are increasing plus there is increased possibility to buy from Romania.

Also Slovaks but also Hungarians do have options to buy from Soviet Union. I believe there were OTL some trade contacts in 1939/41.

But true is Slovakia has only one armored regiment. At the best it can field one Fast Division (Rychla divize) - Czechoslovak Fast Division had 1 tank regiment and maybe 1 fully motorized infantry division.

Not much to wage mechanized warfare. There are probably only 2 regions this kind of force could be efficiently used in case hostilities against Germany starts - towards Krakow or towards Brno.

Everything else is pretty hilly. I guess from political reasons everybody including Osusky would prefer go for Protectorate. Unfortunately even Hungarians have only one armored division and this is already committed towards Vienna so this couldn’t operate from Slovak territory towards Krakow. And Hungarian troops even temporarily on Slovak territory wouldn’t be very popular.

Isn’t there chance to talk Romanians into committing themselves against Germans from Slovak territory? Romanians had good relations with Czechoslovakia, Slovakia as well as Poland. Of course Hungarians would have to permit transport of Romanians troops through their territory.

OTL Romanians were fighting on Slovak and Czech territory in 1944/45 against Germans. If my memory is correct some 70000 were KIA.

Edit: This kind of cooperation would be cool reminder to Eastern European politicians for cooperation post war against Soviet expansion.
 
I know that Slovakia is inside the Blockaded zone, but that would apply to more or less everything that would be shipped to using the Med. But between being able to buy from Romania and their own oil, I would expect that the Slovakians would at least have more Gasoline per tank and probably more per vehicle than the Germans do. Depends on how much the Germans have been leaning on the Slovakians for oil and oil related products.

Speaking of which, where is the petrol for the Entente coming from these days? They are out of Dollars to buy it from the Americans, and the Japanese are buying every drop they can from the DEI. I guess from Persia? My guess is that Persia is going to be in a different situation than OTL since the British and Soviets won't divide them into spheres of influence. The question is whether Stalin is scary enough to keep Persia inside Entente sphere of Influence. (Maybe iTTL, they balance the Entente with the Americans?)
 
They are out of Dollars to buy it from the Americans,
With the Entente on the verge of victory getting loans from the Americans at good rates is not going to be a problem.
Germany is going to pay big time for this war and they are not going to get off the hook like they did last time.
Germany is not going to be allowed to inflate their currency in order to pay the reparations off early like they tried to do in the Twenties.
My idea would be that Germany pay reparations for a set number of years with no early payoff, they either pay a flat amount or a certain percentage of their GDP whichever is greater, this would give the Entente an incentive not to loot anything that is not nailed down and let Germany recover economically sooner.
 
With the Entente on the verge of victory getting loans from the Americans at good rates is not going to be a problem.
Germany is going to pay big time for this war and they are not going to get off the hook like they did last time.
Germany is not going to be allowed to inflate their currency in order to pay the reparations off early like they tried to do in the Twenties.
My idea would be that Germany pay reparations for a set number of years with no early payoff, they either pay a flat amount or a certain percentage of their GDP whichever is greater, this would give the Entente an incentive not to loot anything that is not nailed down and let Germany recover economically sooner.
Remember 3 months ago iTTL they weren't on the verge of victory

30th September 1941
At a meeting of the Entente Supreme War Council in London, the Dutch Prime Minister Eelco van Kleffens gives final approval for the planned offensive by the British and Dutch armies across the Water Line and into Germany. The French undertake to launch an offensive of their own into Belgium no more than one week after the BEF attack is launched.

And less than a week ago, the Entente was looking at not needing significant fuel until spring, which would have given them time to build up from their own sources...
 
Some more fun with maps. Here are two that I created, one showing the location of oil fields and associated refineries in the Far East and Pacific area and one on the location of iron ore mines. Hopefully this valuable intelligence won't fall into the hands of the Imperial Japanese Navy. :)
 

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Driftless

Donor
Some more fun with maps. Here are two that I created, one showing the location of oil fields and associated refineries in the Far East and Pacific area and one on the location of iron ore mines. Hopefully this valuable intelligence won't fall into the hands of the Imperial Japanese Navy. :)

Both maps are very interesting. I hadn't realized that the Philippines was an Iron ore producer of significance.

Are you a cartographer by profession?
 
Knowing the lessons from the OTL I can see the argument for keeping the battleships Strasbourg and Dunkerque at Singapore, but at this point ITTL would either the British or the French recognize the true vulnerability of their battleships to carrier-based aircraft? After all, in the OTL weren't the British confident that ground-based air support would be sufficient to protect Prince of Wales and Repulse?
It's worth noting that Force Z was one hell of a long way from the nearest air threat when sunk - the site of the sinking is 470 NM from the nearest Japanese air base, and the carriers were all near to Hawaii at the time. Add in the fact that nobody realised how good the Japanese air crews were - the best anybody had achieved at sea to date was crippling Pola at Matapan, and she had stopped to avoid hitting another ship when struck. There are going to be people - particularly the RN I suspect - who <<think>> that carrier aircraft can sink capital ships at sea. Problem is that they can't prove it, and until nuclear weapons go to sea then the matter will be in dispute.

Even if the French did recognize the vulnerability of their battleships, wouldn't it still be useful to keep some scouting force based at Cam Ranh Bay? In this role, which do you think would be more useful, the older heavy cruisers or the more modern light cruisers? Perhaps an argument can be made that Force X stays. Also, would the British consider forward basing their submarines at Cam Ranh Bay?
The British submarines are largely forward based in Hong Kong - Cam Ranh bay is too far to the rear, and they're only risking a couple of depot ships.

Armée de l'Air in French Indochina
I presume that ITTL that the AdA's position in FIC in significantly improved from this. Also, I doubt that the Franco-Thai War would have occurred ITTL, but that's up to pdf27.
The only thing mentioned to date in the story is that the French have bought 40 SM.79 torpedo bombers, fitted them with radar (ASV Mk.II) and moved them to just outside Hanoi.

The doctrinal development of the Royal Netherlands Navy will be interesting and can go two ways.
  1. The deployment of the French and British heavy units to SEA does somewhat vindicate the position of the 'navalists' ('big'-gun lobby), who had spend the Interbellum claiming that all that was needed against the IJN would be light cruisers as the Japanese would need all their heavy units to counter those of the RN/USN. OTL those heavy units were primarily engaged in the ETO, ATL this is not so. In navalist logic this means that the DEI squadron will be able to defend the East Indies quite handidly, especially considering the ATL additions. Theoretically there could be as many as 7 light cruisers and 12 destroyers available.
  2. However, the Dutch government could very well demand that the surface units are mainly concentrated in the mainland to protect the all important convoys that supply the country, its citizens and its army. In that case what is left of the submarine-lobby might be able to win the day after all. Theoretically there are as many as 17 (!) submarines available for service in the DEI (though some might be detailed for (practically useless) interdiction of German-Norway convoys as OTL). This means as many as four separate submarine divisions (consisting of three submarines each) will be available. With (most of) the surface units in Europe, the road is open for wolfpack-style operations against the IJN.
Which one of these two roads are taken depends a lot on the situation in Dutch politics. About the only thing we can be sure about is that Premier De Geer is gone at this point. The man might have been an OK prime-minister in times of peace, in times of war he certainly was not. He is going to loose his nerves either in May 1940 or during the occupation of Paris. Who is going to replace him is a big blur, as is the rest. We can't just assume that Gerbrandy will take over as per OTL as the situation is totally different. Queen Wilhelmina wil have more influence than before the war, but will NOT have the immense power as OTL, as the Cabinet will still be in full contact with Parlement. It might be Gerbrandy after all but his party, the ARP, had not done very well in the elections of 1937, it was in fact the third party after the RKSP (Catholics) and the SDAP (Labour). De Geers party, the CHU (Protestant) was fourth though. There might be someone else from the CHU but it could also be someone of the larger parties. Hell, there is a small chance that Colijn might become prime minister again!
de Geer resigned on the 19th of May 1940, being replaced by van Kleffens as "caretaker" Prime Minister. He's still there as PM - he's doing well enough at running the coalition and there hasn't been an election, so is sticking around in the top job for now.

The real question is how seriously the Allies are taking the far east. If they are being starved of hardware and knowhow the potential for a disaster is there. OTOH with no invasion panic the RNs aircraft are going to be current and there is no call for the best of them to be tied down in Europe.
They aren't getting the best, but what they are getting is good enough. They've got a new fighter (the Miles Marlin - an M.20 relative), and the Barracuda is starting to become available in a little better state than in OTL having got a Griffon from the start.

Will any of the Western powers had an equivalent of the AVG flying against the Japanese in China at this point?
No, that would be quite severely frowned upon. If anybody wants to fight, there are plenty of places they're actually needed.

1. Very likely they will demand it. And very likely they will not get everything.
Of course ;)

2. My mistake. I assumed once in spoiler it is set in stone. ;)
For clarity, anything I put up as a spoiler is in the current "future" buffer - currently at 85,000 words versus 250,000 for the whole story. However, that is subject to rewrites - if I change my mind about something I go into it and rewrite the arc as it goes along. Sometimes I miss things, but at the time I actually reach that point in the future everything is thoroughly vetted.

In 1938 Gbely produced 10% of Czechoslovak oil needs - at the time Gbely production was app 30000 t a year. So we can more or less assume Slovakia would be self sufficient in fuel. Of course there will be shipments to Germany. And of course something would be carefully stored away. Once supplies to Germany stop flowing - and this could happened for example right after Hungarians declare war, Slovak supplies are increasing plus there is increased possibility to buy from Romania.
But true is Slovakia has only one armored regiment. At the best it can field one Fast Division (Rychla divize) - Czechoslovak Fast Division had 1 tank regiment and maybe 1 fully motorized infantry division.
Not much to wage mechanized warfare. There are probably only 2 regions this kind of force could be efficiently used in case hostilities against Germany starts - towards Krakow or towards Brno.
It's sometimes easy to forget how little people of the 1930s and 40s actually consumed by modern standards...

Speaking of which, where is the petrol for the Entente coming from these days? They are out of Dollars to buy it from the Americans, and the Japanese are buying every drop they can from the DEI. I guess from Persia? My guess is that Persia is going to be in a different situation than OTL since the British and Soviets won't divide them into spheres of influence. The question is whether Stalin is scary enough to keep Persia inside Entente sphere of Influence. (Maybe iTTL, they balance the Entente with the Americans?)
I'm assuming prewar patterns for crude oil - for the UK at least that means 50% from Venezuela and the Dutch West Indies, and another 8% from Empire sources (Trinidad and Burma). Most of the rest comes from the Middle East (Persia and Iraq), plus some from the Dutch East Indies and Borneo.
Iso-Octane is more of a problem - they're building plants at Heysham, Stanlow, Abadan and Trinidad, but they aren't due to come on-stream for another 6 months or so. They have a moderate amount of supply under their control, but there will be a shortfall that they have to import from the USA.

With the Entente on the verge of victory getting loans from the Americans at good rates is not going to be a problem.
Germany is going to pay big time for this war and they are not going to get off the hook like they did last time.
Germany is not going to be allowed to inflate their currency in order to pay the reparations off early like they tried to do in the Twenties.
My idea would be that Germany pay reparations for a set number of years with no early payoff, they either pay a flat amount or a certain percentage of their GDP whichever is greater, this would give the Entente an incentive not to loot anything that is not nailed down and let Germany recover economically sooner.
That deals with some of the problems, but leaves others. Who gets the money? How do you keep them occupying Germany to prevent this all happening again?
 
It's sometimes easy to forget how little people of the 1930s and 40s actually consumed by modern standards...
Yep. I however remember 80-ties when my grandparents almost didn't produce any garbage. Everything what could go into compost went into compost or what could was fed to chickens or other animals. Glass jars from bought food were used to preserve veggies or fruits. There was only some plastic but not much as it was not used at the time too much. Of course at the time all bottles used for mineral water, lemonade or beer was returnable to store. You paid extra 1 kron for each bottle and got 1 kron back when returning. On other side in early 80-ties they were still using coal to heat the house so they print out was well not small. In winter air in the village just sucked.

Anyway I was digging around and found something about Slovak Soviet relations at the times. Slovaks took Soviets as a brotherly Slavic nation but were anticommunist. They even tried to wage Soviets into their internal politics. And it seems Tiso and Benes were actually playing same game with Ruthenia. Basically offering it to Soviets for support. As I said. Benes and Tiso should be sent to that monastery together. Tiso at however understood when Soviets will come in they will not leave.
On other side local communist even if party was banned were not prosecuted too much. By 1941 Slovak communist were reporting to Moscow that Slovak nationalism and support for independent Slovakia is too strong and would be better not to mention Czechoslovakia too much on Radio Moscow. Some of them proposed Slovak Soviet Republic. ;)

Also Slovakia took a bit part on German Soviet trade agreement. For example cotton was ordered (supplied in full before Barbarossa) or 400 000 t of oil! Here Soviets had their suspicions most of it was actually ordered for Germany as Slovakia at the time didn't had needs for so much oil. Part of it was delivered, how much however I was not able to find.
 
That deals with some of the problems, but leaves others. Who gets the money? How do you keep them occupying Germany to prevent this all happening again?
First you set the amount of money and the payment schedule then you can figure out a formula on who gets what and when.
Second Germany is going to be occupied for a few years and afterwards they are going to be put on a short leash.
The leaders of the Entente have been through this before either in the government or in the Armed Forces in the last war and many of them lost family members in the last war and in this current war, and this is going to be the driving force in their post wars plans is in the future not to go through this again.
 
Both maps are very interesting. I hadn't realized that the Philippines was an Iron ore producer of significance.

Are you a cartographer by profession?
No, it’s just a hobby. I started while doing some of my own AH. I find that it is a good way to organize the background research as well as to record the changes in the TL.
 

Driftless

Donor
No, it’s just a hobby. I started while doing some of my own AH. I find that it is a good way to organize the background research as well as to record the changes in the TL.

I had a couple of cartography courses in college a thousand years ago, so I appreciate the combination of art and technical expertise that goes into good map-making. You've got the knack for conveying a useful message through maps.
 
Speaking of which, where is the petrol for the Entente coming from these days? They are out of Dollars to buy it from the Americans, and the Japanese are buying every drop they can from the DEI.

The Entente will still be earning some dollars from exports, not all of their production will be devoted to war production. I also wouldn’t rule out the DEI as a source. The Japanese are probably running down their gold reserves faster than the Entente. The Dutch also need to pay Britain and France for military goods and food, either with oil or recycled Japanese gold payments.
 

Driftless

Donor
The Entente will still be earning some dollars from exports, not all of their production will be devoted to war production. I also wouldn’t rule out the DEI as a source. The Japanese are probably running down their gold reserves faster than the Entente. The Dutch also need to pay Britain and France for military goods and food, either with oil or recycled Japanese gold payments.

There would be some risk calculations there. The Dutch could legitimately say they are repaying debts via oil, but that could push the Japanese to desperation. Conversely, the Dutch can use the fact that their trading partners are the big kids on the block as leverage against Japanese threats. How far does any country want to push that point?
 
There would be some risk calculations there. The Dutch could legitimately say they are repaying debts via oil, but that could push the Japanese to desperation. Conversely, the Dutch can use the fact that their trading partners are the big kids on the block as leverage against Japanese threats. How far does any country want to push that point?
It’s not that the Dutch would refuse to sell to Japan, but rather than Japan will be having increasing trouble in finding the resources to pay for the Dutch oil. I don’t have the data at my fingertips, but I will try to find out what share of the DEI oil production the Japanese were actually purchasing. I would be surprised if they had a monopoly.
 

Driftless

Donor
It’s not that the Dutch would refuse to sell to Japan, but rather than Japan will be having increasing trouble in finding the resources to pay for the Dutch oil. I don’t have the data at my fingertips, but I will try to find out what share of the DEI oil production the Japanese were actually purchasing. I would be surprised if they had a monopoly.

Sorry, I didn't clarify... I think under the circumstance, the Dutch would sell to both, but the Entente may have a higher priority because of the European war support. The DEI oil would be even more of a constrained commodity and thereby have a higher selling point. Which adds to the problems for the Japanese.

There seem to be some parallels with the Swedish iron ore and demands for that ore between the Entente and the Nazi's. With Narvik still in Entente hands, the Swedes have options and some leverage, unlike our history.
 
Do the Japanese even have the fuel to prosecute a naval war at this point? They haven't been embargoed yet, but even if they pare civilian consumption back to an absolute minimum the Army's going to suck up a lot of it for operations in China. In fact, the Army can probably argue that since the Navy's oh-so-fancy battleships and carriers aren't being much use just now, why not bring them into drydock and drain their fuel tanks? Admittedly, naval fuel may be incompatible with land vehicle engines, but someone in the Army's bound to bring it up.

Which attitude is going to put even more pressure on the Navy to do something to justify their existence, which in this case is going to mean hitting either Pearl Harbor (extremely unlikely, as the lack of embargo has probably kept America either off Japan's shitlist or at least a long way down it) or Singapore as a prelude to conquering the Southern Resource Area. The problem with trying a Singapore strike is two-fold. Firstly, as previously mentioned, the Japanese are going to have to fight pretty long odds and pull off a near-flawless victory on the first try, or else they are so screwed it's not even funny. Secondly, depending on the state of their fuel reserves, they may have only enough fuel to get to the AO, maneuver for and fight one major engagement, and then either conquer the nearest fuel refinery or else run for home.

So the Navy's going to be looking at a choice between being forced into a lesser role vis a vis the Army or accepting a potential suicide mission with a several-score thousand to one chance of turning not just their fortunes, but their whole country's fortunes around. Any bets as to which option the Navy's high command will think is preferable?
 
It’s not that the Dutch would refuse to sell to Japan, but rather than Japan will be having increasing trouble in finding the resources to pay for the Dutch oil. I don’t have the data at my fingertips, but I will try to find out what share of the DEI oil production the Japanese were actually purchasing. I would be surprised if they had a monopoly.

Before you start digging into historical data, don't forget there was a alternate deal between the DEI and Japan in this timeline :)
 

I assume this means option 1 instead of quotation-troubles? :) With the hold Furstner had on the KM, this is not unlogical. He might not get the position of Minister of the Navy in this TL though. Anwyay, at least there will still be 17 submarines that can do some good.

de Geer resigned on the 19th of May 1940, being replaced by van Kleffens as "caretaker" Prime Minister. He's still there as PM - he's doing well enough at running the coalition and there hasn't been an election, so is sticking around in the top job for now.

Ah yes, forget about that. Given the fact that he was not a member of any party this is a pretty safe and logical choice. Given his role in the formation of the Benelux that could very well happen ATL as well, though that also depends on the effect of the Dutch military take over of rump-Flanders in 1940. That might have put the shakes into the Walloons.


Regarding the Japanese, I think that IF the Japanese move south (and that's a big if, though them evacuating China is just as big an if), their best bet might be to assume that the US stays out, at least for the first part of the offensive. Otherwise there is no possible way for them to make it work, even in their strategy-addled minds. They would not be totally wrong in this case either. The US has next to no reason to fight for the European empires, especially with Hitler on the ropes.

So no Pearl Harbor, no invasion of the Philippines. What is the Kido Butai going to do? Singapore is out of the question. It might be tempting to try and take out the Allied fleet in one swoop but it lies at the end of a big trap named the Southern China Sea. Instead of that the Japanese carriers can be used to take out more exposed bases like Hong Kong and Haiphong and support the main thrust of the offensive: the Dutch East Indies. Without landings on Malaya and western Borneo, the IJN must have enough sealift to make signifcant gains. I could certainly see Tarakan (with it's oilwells), Menado, Ambon and Rabaul being taken. If the Kido Butai is there in full force they might gamble on places like Balikpapan, Timor, Kendari and/or Guadalcanal as well.
 
It’s not that the Dutch would refuse to sell to Japan, but rather than Japan will be having increasing trouble in finding the resources to pay for the Dutch oil. I don’t have the data at my fingertips, but I will try to find out what share of the DEI oil production the Japanese were actually purchasing. I would be surprised if they had a monopoly.
Japan had quite a bit of gold and foreign currency - but it was held in the US, where iotl it was frozen. Ittl, it hasn't been, so they can buy all the oil they need for several years.

A more immediate problem maybe tankers. A lot of Japan's oil needs were carried in foreign tankers prewar. Even without an embargo, I could see the Entente tankers, at least, being pulled for Entente needs.
 

Orry

Donor
Monthly Donor
Japan had quite a bit of gold and foreign currency - but it was held in the US, where iotl it was frozen. Ittl, it hasn't been, so they can buy all the oil they need for several years.

A more immediate problem maybe tankers. A lot of Japan's oil needs were carried in foreign tankers prewar. Even without an embargo, I could see the Entente tankers, at least, being pulled for Entente needs.

So an opportunity for American shipping as long as there is no embargo......
 
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