You know the situation is bad, when Vasily is sober and acts like a logical human being
A Bleeding Heart of Steel: Stalin Dies Early
- Thread starter Kerguelen
- Start date
Old Soldiers Never Die
Old Soldiers Never Die
“I fired him because he wouldn’t respect the authority of the President…I didn’t fire him because he was a dumb son of a bitch, although he was, but that’s not against the laws for generals. If it was, half to three-quarters of them would be in jail.” – Harry Truman speaking on General Douglas MacArthur (OTL)
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“The year was 1952 and things weren’t looking so great for the Democrat party. The economy wasn’t doing as well as it used to and people across the nation seemed to doubt whether the Truman doctrine was the best course of action for American foreign policy. Truman had promised the people that he would contain communism, but America had lost in China and failed to protect their Korean ally. When Truman brought Greenland from the Danish government, Americans questioned the value of buying a giant chunk of land that was even more frozen than Alaska while the red menace continued to grow stronger [1]. Thanks to the efforts Molotov and Mao, communism would spread across the East as more countries started to call themselves “People’s Republics”.
A few concerned citizens even started asking themselves why there even was a United Nations if the Soviets would keep stopping America from protecting its allies abroad. While the America First Movement had yet to snowball into a major political force, the isolationists remained a clear force in American politics, which manifested itself into the form of Robert Taft, who's campaign received a massive amount of support. Opposing him was the campaign of Thomas E. Dewey a figure of the liberal eastern establishment which had entrenched itself deep into the Party of Lincoln. Between these two candidates, the liberal/conservative divide within the Grand Old Party was clearer than ever as Americans questioned whether to change or preserve the system.
Between both wings was the campaign of Harold Stassen, who held true to the internationalist policies of fighting communism and keeping the New Deal alive (well, some parts of it). Stassen was a fresh face for the Republicans across America, the face of a new generation of Republican voters while the people saw Taft as a man of the past and Dewey as a general failure. However, Stassen’s noticeably moderate policies began to isolate several conservatives which had grown stronger after the American people had become fatigued with years of Democrat rule. Despite the efforts of the three leading candidates (and a few favorite sons), the primaries would be brokered between the three of them as Republicans were unable to decide who would be their man to take back the White House.”
- Coca Cola County: A Hisotry of American Politics by Dale Bricker
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Dewey supporters crowd into the 1952 Republican National Convention
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Dewey supporters crowd into the 1952 Republican National Convention
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“Things in the smoke-filled room started heating up this morning after we started talking about who'd be our nominee. And of course, the negotiating turned into arguing as it usually does when you’ve got folks serving whiskey and beer around the room. In the end, we decided that none of the top three candidates were good enough. Taft hated Dewey, Dewey hated Taft, and there was nothing that could change that. Sure, Stassen did well in the primaries but the problem was, no one thought that he had enough momentum or experience to put himself in the White House.
What those bigwigs and politicos needed was a man who could gain the favor of the establishment and the common people. But the problem was, Taft just didn’t have the charisma and Dewey was yesterday’s news. The GOP needed a man who could unite the country and naturally, someone suggested General MacArthur. You see, the thing with MacArthur is that the backroom didn’t really think of him as a serious candidate. Sure, he was running, but the thing was, he never really campaigned at all and most Americans hadn’t heard of him since the Reds kicked us out of Korea. Hell, a few of us thought that he put his name on the ballot just to piss off Truman. But that didn’t matter, people were gonna know after he was picked.
Another big problem was that none of us knew what he really stood for. Did he quit the Army because Truman did too much to help out the Koreans, or was it because he wasn’t doing enough to protect Seoul? Sure, he was pretty conservative, but he also was pretty supportive of the New Deal and a couple other of Roosevelt’s programs. And sure, he wasn’t too keen how Truman handled Korea, but he didn’t speak very kindly of peaceniks like Taft when he was in the army. Funny enough, this ended up being the thing that made MacArthur the perfect compromise candidate.
For some reason, those bigwigs just decided not to assume to worst and put their support behind the General. But just to be safe, we tried to discuss a few alternatives, but none of them had the fame or the charisma that MacArthur had. I mean, the man lost the Philippines to the Japs, but he still got Roosevelt treating him like he was America’s last hope against the Yellow Peril. Hell, he told the Bonus Army to screw themselves and he still got Americans thinking that he saved them from Stalin sitting in the White House. If that doesn’t spell Good P.R, I don’t know what does. A few people suggested another General, like Ike Eisenhower. But the problem was, no one knew if Ike was a Democrat or a Republican, I guess politics just wasn’t his thing. People liked the idea of Patton as a nominee, but everyone was afraid that he’d try to shoot the opposition during the debates. I remember someone joked that we put Walt Disney on the ballot, but Roy told that guy to shut the hell up.
Finally our boss, Tailgunner Joe managed to pull his ass off of his chair and said, “If you ladies can’t come up with anyone better than General MacArthur, then the only thing that I can do at this point is support him!”
Then, Stassen stood up and gave this speech about how MacArthur was gonna lead America to victory in the war against communism. I heard a few groans from Taft’s delegates but I didn’t bother to stick around, they were gonna pick MacArthur no matter what. And why wouldn’t they? Everyone knew his name and he hated Truman’s guts. And in the end, those two things were pretty much all that they needed.”
-Excerpt from the Diary of Robert Kennedy [2]
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General MacArthur (left) meets Alambama Congressman Frank Boykin on the campaign trail
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General MacArthur (left) meets Alambama Congressman Frank Boykin on the campaign trail
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“As the Republican Party coalesced around Douglas MacArthur, the General knew that he needed a running mate that was young enough to calm concerns of his old age but experienced enough draw up supporters across America. Earl Warren, a supporter of the MacArthur campaign recommended Junior Senator Richard Nixon to swing the large state of California to the Republican Party. However, Nixon’s fellow California Senator and intra-party rival, William Knowland convinced MacArthur not to pick Nixon, arguing that voters simply wouldn’t recognize who the young senator was. Later, Robert Taft would come to the General, offering another running mate in exchange for his support, Indiana Senator William E. Jenner.
Taft’s candidate was a political ally of his, being a prominent member of the isolationist movement and a fellow senator from the Midwest. During his time in the Senate, Jenner had also gained a great deal of popularity thanks to his criticisms of the Truman administration and his campaigns to stomp out communism within the government. The Senator from Indiana would become the talk of the town after he told America that communist spies had infiltrated the State Department and that the case of Alger Hiss had only been the tip of the iceberg [3]. MacArthur would reluctantly agree to Taft’s suggestion, hoping to draw support from the isolationist wing of the party. During the election, MacArthur would take the role of the experienced statesman criticizing the Truman administration for its failures abroad, while Jenner served as the attack dog, accusing detractors of communist sympathies.
Meanwhile on the Democratic ticket, Tennessee Senator Estes Kefauver ran alongside Massachusetts Senator Paul A. Dever to continue the legacy of Roosevelt and Truman. However, Kefauver’s progressive policies proved to be relatively unpopular in the Deep South as members of the Conservative Coalition called him an ally of pinkos, commies, and spies [4]. Indeed, the practice of red-baiting was common throughout the 1952 election as citizens across America began to loathe the Red Menace for killing their soldiers in Korea and spreading chaos across the globe. While the Red Scare was still in its early stages during this time, the looming specter of communism still hung over everyday Americans.
Despite the presence of mudslinging throughout the election, the Presidential debates would be surprisingly civil as MacArthur and Kefauver calmly discussed the legacy of the Truman administration and their visions for America’s future. Meanwhile, the Vice Presidential debates would be a whole different matter. Jenner delivered a shrill attack against the Democratic Party and accused President Truman of high treason. Meanwhile, Dever argued that Jenner’s isolationism would allow American’s allies to be crushed under the iron boot of communism and allow the Red Army to march into Alaska. In spite of this, support for Jenner continued to rise as the people's fear of communism rose. After all, the status quo had failed after years of Democratic rule and if there was one thing America needed, it was a boogeyman to hate and fear.”
- American Politics in the 20th Centry, by Timothy Calhoun
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Vice President Jenner (left) greets the press with Senator Robert Taft (right)
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Vice President Jenner (left) greets the press with Senator Robert Taft (right)
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FIFTY YEARS AGO TODAY: DOUGLAS MACARTHUR SWORN IN AS PRESIDENT
On one cold January day, General Douglas MacArthur was sworn in as President by Chief Justice Fred Vinson, with his running mate, William Jenner by his side. On that day MacArthur would become the first Republican president in twenty years, following the administrations of President Roosevelt and Truman. The MacArthur-Jenner ticket would receive an overwhelming amount of support during the elections, winning the southern states of Virginia, Florida, South Carolina, Texas, and Louisiana which had not voted Republican since the Reconstruction [5]. As of today, the legacy of President MacArthur is generally positive as his supporters praise him for his extensive infrastructure programs, his opposition to communism, and his stance against segregation. However, detractors criticize his role in the Great Red Scare and his actions in Iran, the Phillipines, and the Second Korean War.”
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[1] Danish and American relations would warm considerably after the Allied Powers agreed to grant Schleswig-Holstein to Denmark
[2] Robert Kennedy would work for McCarthy IOTL as an advisor on the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
[3] Among other things, Jenner would claim that the federal government was "controlled by an inner coterie, directed by Soviet agents" and accused the Truman administration of "covering bloody tracks of treason"
[4] Memphis mayor and Democratic party boss, E. H. Crump would accuse Kefauver of being this IOTL
[5] Modern historians attribute MacArthur's victory in Louisiana to be the work of political bosses who opposed Kefauver's war against crime
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What is the reason for this in TTL?
For that matter, how does the german border look like? I know the war ended earlier but how is germany divided?
Berlin is entirely controlled by the communists and Germany is basically divided along the Elbe River. I've already described the borders of alt-Germany in this post.
PrussianPrince
Banned
Did you mean it's the first time the south voted Republican? You just said they voted for the Republican MacArthur and then said Democrats.
marathag
Banned
He was deeply unpopular once he started acting asa near dictator. The CIA support to the Generals was laughably small. Without it, it still would have happened in months.
Even in this case, Iran will hopefully avoid the dictatorship of the Shah
marathag
Banned
They were going to get a Dictator, either way. And given that Mossadegh was drifting towards the Communists(and getting closer to the Tudeh Party was reason that he lost support of the Mullahs) that would be worse than the Shah
I mean the Shah's dictatorship ended with the rise of an islamic "republic". I don't think the guy was such a good replacement.
I am not defending the communists by the way. I just think people tend to ignore the Shah's various crimes simply because Khomeyni ended up being much worse.
marathag
Banned
The Iranian people were going to get a Dictator, no matter what. Mossadegh as a either a near or actual Soviet client State will still get the Mullahs to try to overthrow him
Without Taiwan as a wedge issue between China and the U.S., there'll probably be an earlier Sino-Soviet split.
As far as I know, the sino-soviet split happened because of disagreements between Mao and Khrushchev about interpretations of Marxism-Leninism.
With Molotov and friends continuing being stalinists, this should not happen
I see the Sino-Soviet split as inevitable due to Mao wanting to lead his own 'bloc,' and the Americans were more than happy to help. Mao used Stalinism as an excuse, but really, it's been theorized that he barely understood Marxist principles, much less Stalinism.
IOTL, Mao saw the Americans as enemies due to their support for Taiwan; here, that's a non-issue. That makes him more likely to be a Tito-esque wildcard.
Still enjoying this very much. However, I have to point out that the Danish political establishment was very much against any territorial reversions in Schleswig-Holstein, especially vis-a-vis the latter part of the province. In OTL, the most viable proposal would have been minor border adjustments in Northern SH (Flensburg). There were some support for affiliation with Denmark amongst otherwise pro-German Schleswigers (because of the totality of and destruction caused by the German defeat), but this evaporated once the situation stabilised. Even then, neither Denmark nor the local Germans had any interest in attaching Holstein to Copenhagen.
Along the same lines, I'd like to hear some more about what caused the Danish government to accept (I presume) James Byrnes' 1946 offer? In OTL, the government was very much against these plans. As the foreign minister quipped to the American ambassador: "... even though we owe the US a great deal, I don't feel we owe them the whole island of Greenland."
Mossadegh was a conservative aristocrat who despised socialism. His political programme was shaped by populist nationalism with an off-set in the experiences of the Constitutional Revolution (in which, a great number of clerics participated btw). Churchill's precept that without AJAX, Iran would succumb to Communism was meant to lure the Americans in on the coup d'etat and shouldn't be taken at face value. Indeed, IIRC, had the coup failed, the Brits were resigned to swallow their pride and try to work with Mossadegh.
Along the same lines, I'd like to hear some more about what caused the Danish government to accept (I presume) James Byrnes' 1946 offer? In OTL, the government was very much against these plans. As the foreign minister quipped to the American ambassador: "... even though we owe the US a great deal, I don't feel we owe them the whole island of Greenland."
Mossadegh was a conservative aristocrat who despised socialism. His political programme was shaped by populist nationalism with an off-set in the experiences of the Constitutional Revolution (in which, a great number of clerics participated btw). Churchill's precept that without AJAX, Iran would succumb to Communism was meant to lure the Americans in on the coup d'etat and shouldn't be taken at face value. Indeed, IIRC, had the coup failed, the Brits were resigned to swallow their pride and try to work with Mossadegh.
I suspect that it's more of a personal union than anything else. Similar to Iceland in the 1940s.
marathag
Banned
Don't forget he canceled an Election he knew he would lose in 1951.
You can despise Socialism, yet still use groups that favor it, when you're an Autocrat on their way to being a Dictator.
Baathist Socialism was different West European Socialism and what was on the other side of the Iron Curtain
He still ended what was the last vestiges of Serfdom, increased taxes on the Rich, and Nationalized companies, and started collective farms
Yep, not a Socialist bone in his body.
It’s pretty clear that the Cold War didn’t actually divide the world into Soviet and American client states. All those countries evidence that quite nicely.
No Iranian coup probably leads to Iran being a bigger player in the non-aligned movement. I don’t think it’s unlikely that the Communists in Iran would eventually face a similar fate to those in Egypt or Iraq.
Also: This timeline is excellent! Please keep it up!
Given the historical connotations of Schleswig-Holstein in both Denmark and Germany, I find that rather implausible.
History is not black and white. Indeed, Mohammad Mossadegh's governance and policies are far too complex to neatly fit the Cold War's dichotomal straitjacket. Mossadegh once advocated to take the vote away from illiterates in order to weaken the landed oligarchy (which dominated the Majles and shamelessly herded their tenants to the voting booths). He also ordered the army to suppress anti-royalist Tudeh demonstrators, at a time where the Shah and the military were deeply involved in the on-going coup against him. However, what is insurmountable, is the fact that Mossadegh was an avowed constitutionalist.
After the 30th of Tir Incident in 1952, Mossadegh said the following in a speech to the nation (in response to calls for instituting a republic):
The people of Iran – and no one else – have the right to judge this issue. For it is the people who brought into existence our fundamental laws, our constitution, our parliament, and our cabinet system. We must remember that the laws were created for the people, not the people for the laws. The nation has the right to express its views, and, if it wished, to change the laws. In a democratic and constitutional country, the nation reigns supreme.
The notion that Mossadegh was on his way to institute some kind of Socialist dictatorship is nothing but the parroting of the excuses Britain and the US made to preserve an international oil cartel.