I will fix it up I missed that it reads like the RN had lost a heavy cruiser.
A Better Rifle at Halloween
- Thread starter diesal
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Thanks. 👍
That makes the immediate results of the battle itself much clearer (at least to me 😌 )
However, the impact is more difficult to judge (though perhaps you have it worked out)
Firstly of course is that it is a definite operational success for the RN in that the German attempt to use their navy to help their army has failed
(which is especially significant to TTL where things are unfolding even more differently ashore than afloat)
Secondly, although the RN has taken significant losses itself, the attritional effect of the Germans is far greater
especially wrt their ability to carry out high-speed raids into the North Sea
The OTL 1st Scouting Group has lost half of its of its current BC strength (one third of those it was ever able to use in the North Sea in1914-18)
With damage to Moltke Germany has none immediately available (Derrflinger is still in dockyard hands till November).
The lighter units ( AC+CL+DD) have suffered more than OTL Heligoland & Dogger Bank combined i.e more in 1 month than in 10.
Thirdly, there is the probable effect on German morale/confidence and their forward planning
iOTL after Heligoland, the Germans restricted their surface operations for months .. after TTL Thornton Bank?
IMHO iTTL overall the balance is more in favour of the RN without being a real game-changer yet.
The key question is will this accelerate the German submarine operations
especially the first (near-disastrous) implementation of Unrestricted Warfare?
Fourthly, some very significant individuals have been removed from the board, others were given a raised profile
Beatty is lost to the RN (which may not be a bad thing)
Conversely, Tyrwhitt may get to command some real dreadnoughts instead of CLs that happen to have a similar visual profile
BTW I assume Hipper is gone for the Germans (Seydlitz was lost catastrophically which was his usual Flagship in 1914-15)
@diesal would you please confirm this either way?
Fifthly, it seems likely that the RN will draw some significant lessons from this action
especially wrt long-range accuracy, damage control and the overall vulnerability of more lightly armoured ships.
It is even possible the lessons of OTL Jutland will kick in nearly 2 years earlier than OTL
Finally, the whole exercise has been a public relations disaster for Germany
both in terms of mass opinion and formal diplomatic relations with neutral nations.
(iOTL both the Netherlands and the USA were major suppliers to Britain in 1914-16)
Looks like you have a lot on your plate, even before you turn back to the war ashore
so I'll sign off, waiting for the next update
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Were territorial waters set at three miles or twelve miles in 1914?
In either case a German battle cruiser avoiding the shallows off the Dutch coast would be in range of a RN BC outside of Dutch waters. Now in hot pursuit of a belligerent warship violating neutral waters to escape the RN could make a very good case for continuing to engage the enemy. If the German warship continues to return fire then there can be little complaint from them.
Now back to those fascinating rifles!
In either case a German battle cruiser avoiding the shallows off the Dutch coast would be in range of a RN BC outside of Dutch waters. Now in hot pursuit of a belligerent warship violating neutral waters to escape the RN could make a very good case for continuing to engage the enemy. If the German warship continues to return fire then there can be little complaint from them.
Now back to those fascinating rifles!
I suspect there'll be a hard debate in the Admiralty along those lines. Given the German losses, I'd suspect delay might win the day. They've made good on the loss of Lion already, with some interest in light units. Might as well wait long enough to make sure Tiger won't go bang in the same way before sending her out.
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I will touch on submarines in the future, I suspect it will be accelerated.
Hipper is dead. Being aboard a Battlecruiser that has a catastrophic magazine explosion is not conducive to longevity.
The Royal Navy will undoubtably learn significantly from this action. Director control will be more critical and considerable research will go into improvements in fire control.
I would say that Germany is viewed slightly worse than in OTL.
The Royal Navy did not pursue as they had already one a significant if bloody victory and they wanted to be scrupulous in respecting Dutch Neutrality.
There is a bit to go before we get close to this being important but future Admiral Raeder was Hipper's COS. He is likely gone as well.
And not to forget the TS Queen Mary which was in between as well ( currently a museum ship moored in Glasgow )
It's safe to say that this encounter will have the RN re-doubling its investment in the Ludgate Naval Fire Control Director to accelerate both its development and its installation across all classes of ships.....with huge implications in the coming years.
Love it! Great writing Diesal! 🍻
Love it! Great writing Diesal! 🍻
Why did the submarine blush?
Because it saw Queen Mary's Bottom.
(Sorry I couldn't resist)
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Rereading this update I have to wonder if given what happened to HMS Invincible will have the RN looking at their battle procedures along with damage control and fire fighting practices earlier than they did OTL in the war.
The Sub-Committee Meet
4th September 1914, London
The meeting of the sub-committee for the prosecution of the war was in full progress, Winston Churchill was leading a long discussion on the progress of the fighting on the Continent. He had touched on the work being done by the Yeomanry in screening the British forces guarding Ghent and the seeming reluctance of the Germans to come to grips with them or the Belgians who were defending Antwerp.
He also told the story Lt Commander Sampson and his rescue mission and the way they had managed to shoot up a German cavalry squadron. Churchill developed this point, commenting that the development of improved mechanised weapons systems would play to Britain’s strengths in manufacturing.
He touched briefly on the Ludgate Analytical Engine and its applications, one of the other members of the committee pointed out that as no other nation had a comparable system every effort needed to be made to ensure the security of these systems. Lloyd George commented that it was likely that the Official Secrets act covered everything thus far, they agreed to consult with the Attorney General to ensure that its provisions did cover this eventuality. The Director of Naval Intelligence who was present also said that several the assistants provided to Ludgate were members of his organisation. He expressed some concern that given the problems with Ireland some possibility existed of the plans leaking out via various Irish nationalist groups and that his personnel were endeavouring to mitigate that risk.
The discussion moved onto recruitment, which was still going very well, over 250,000 men had presented themselves for recruitment into the Army and already 2nd battalions had been formed up for every unit in the British Army, these units would be formed up as equipment was made available to train them. The view was that until the equipment was available there was no point in causing disruption to industry. In addition it had been discussed reforming the Militia as so much of the Territorial Army was being deployed overseas, the need for a local militia was discounted as being ineffective in view of the absolute preponderance of the Royal Navy.
They then began to discuss the situation of the Royal Navy, the battle of the previous day had been discussed, whilst little was clearly understood at this point, beyond the bare details of the dispatch received from Commodore Tyrwhit. Churchill praised Tyrwhit for his leadership, noting that whilst Rear Admiral Beatty had been in command his early death in the battle with the destruction of HMS Lion had resulted in Tyrwhit being in command for the rest of the battle. When it was suggest that Tyrwhit should have continued the pursuit of the fleeing German ships, Churchill pointed out that by avoiding Dutch waters, the British Government could demonstrate its respect for the Neutrals which was worth more than one Battlecruiser and 2 destroyers.
Churchill also advised that Tyrwhit was still very keen to undertake the Heligoland raid as soon as the necessary repairs were made to his ships. Churchill supported this as the German defences would be further weakened by the loss of so many light units. It was agreed that this raid would take place as soon as practical, Admiral Scott who was present to advise the committee on the gunnery performance suggested they wait until fire control directors could be made available for all of the Battlecruisers. He advised that this could be done in 4 weeks as the orders for the equipment had been placed some time ago. Churchill also suggested that given his excellent performance it would be appropriate for Commodore Tyrwhit to strike his broad pennant and hoist his flag.
The destruction of two British battlecruisers could not help but impact on ship design, Churchill suggested that they freeze any battlecruiser construction until the lessons from the battle could be learnt and then be implemented in future ship design. Admiral Fisher was seen to be looking very unhappy at this statement by the First Lord. It was agreed after heated discussion that more needed to be done with the battlecruisers and they weren't much good if they kept blowing up, it was also appreciated that the German Battlecruisers seemed to have the same defect.
Lloyd George then continued the meeting with a discussion of the economic affairs of the Empire. He noted that foreign sentiment towards the strength of the British Empire was broadly positive and that the bond raising had been successful, in light of that the Bank of England had agreed to continue full convertibility of the Pound.
He also spoke of the work of the purchasing commissioners and their work with the County Territorial Associations to manage recruitment, it was accepted that men whose skills were of value to the war economy would not be allowed to join the forces. Local employers were submitting lists of men whose skills were vital to war work to the county associations to prevent their enlistment. In addition, the county associations were generating lists of men who could be enlisted without detriment to the war economy, they would be contacted as recruitment inevitably waned for service. The initial focus would be unmarried men between the age of 21 and 27, in addition the Officer Training Corps was expanded with new units being formed to generate a suitable supply of junior officers, whilst shielding those who possessed critical skills. Junior Division candidates would undertake 12 weeks training prior to deployment provided they were over 21 and Senior Division candidates 8 weeks again provided they were over 21. In addition the Junior division was expanded to cover Grammar Schools.
The survey of industry was going well, limitations on manufacturing had been identified and Lloyd George spoke of a number of them. First and foremost he spoke of skilled manufacturing workers, noting that they lacked the numbers needed. The next major limitation was on machine tools for manufacturing, the discussion centred on the ability of industry to manufacture sufficient machine tools for the expansion of the war economy. It was felt that this subject should be studied and a focus put on looking at ways to improve manufacturing efficiency, but that as much as possible Britain should look to produce more manufacturing equipment at home rather than importing machine tools from the United States.
Lloyd George then spoke of industrial and civil unrest flowing from war and the need to minimise it. A civilian morale study would be undertaken to keep in touch with the public mood. The next thing that was discussed was the fact that many british firms were unwilling to borrow money to bring their manufacturing processes up to date, they felt that the war would be over quickly and they didn’t want to be in a position to have invested in new equipment they could not use. One suggestion which had been implemented was a series of War Loans to industry which would enable the upgrade of plant and equipment. Companies accepting War loans would be able to keep the equipment at the end of the war but would have to make war material on it for the duration of the war unless ordered otherwise. Another item of discussion was the move towards facilitating group manufacturing by smaller firms in which a number of firms would form a group, each firm would make one or more parts of a thing before the parts were consolidated in one location for final assembly. This was felt to be a good way of bringing many of the smaller firms into the war economy whilst still enabling their survival. The importance of consistency of manufacturing processes and quality was seen as a key limiter to many companies doing war work with the risk of shoddy products being clearly identified. The purchasing commissioners would be responsible for ensuring the specifications of all equipment which was to be purchased would include the quality and testing requirements.
Lloyd George then touched on International Finance and the credit ratings of the various countries, noting that the Central powers had been cut out of all financial services provided by London and their attempts to raise money in Switzerland and the United States were failing. He also pointed out that the interest required on Treasury debts had increased but was still manageable and that France and Russia were both able to raise bonds on the London Market, Belgian and Serbian Debt issues had been supported by a Bank of England guarantee and they had both also succeeded. The meeting then moved onto the subject of taxation, with the extent of tax rises needed to cover the war being a thorny subject which occupied the rest of the meeting.
The meeting of the sub-committee for the prosecution of the war was in full progress, Winston Churchill was leading a long discussion on the progress of the fighting on the Continent. He had touched on the work being done by the Yeomanry in screening the British forces guarding Ghent and the seeming reluctance of the Germans to come to grips with them or the Belgians who were defending Antwerp.
He also told the story Lt Commander Sampson and his rescue mission and the way they had managed to shoot up a German cavalry squadron. Churchill developed this point, commenting that the development of improved mechanised weapons systems would play to Britain’s strengths in manufacturing.
He touched briefly on the Ludgate Analytical Engine and its applications, one of the other members of the committee pointed out that as no other nation had a comparable system every effort needed to be made to ensure the security of these systems. Lloyd George commented that it was likely that the Official Secrets act covered everything thus far, they agreed to consult with the Attorney General to ensure that its provisions did cover this eventuality. The Director of Naval Intelligence who was present also said that several the assistants provided to Ludgate were members of his organisation. He expressed some concern that given the problems with Ireland some possibility existed of the plans leaking out via various Irish nationalist groups and that his personnel were endeavouring to mitigate that risk.
The discussion moved onto recruitment, which was still going very well, over 250,000 men had presented themselves for recruitment into the Army and already 2nd battalions had been formed up for every unit in the British Army, these units would be formed up as equipment was made available to train them. The view was that until the equipment was available there was no point in causing disruption to industry. In addition it had been discussed reforming the Militia as so much of the Territorial Army was being deployed overseas, the need for a local militia was discounted as being ineffective in view of the absolute preponderance of the Royal Navy.
They then began to discuss the situation of the Royal Navy, the battle of the previous day had been discussed, whilst little was clearly understood at this point, beyond the bare details of the dispatch received from Commodore Tyrwhit. Churchill praised Tyrwhit for his leadership, noting that whilst Rear Admiral Beatty had been in command his early death in the battle with the destruction of HMS Lion had resulted in Tyrwhit being in command for the rest of the battle. When it was suggest that Tyrwhit should have continued the pursuit of the fleeing German ships, Churchill pointed out that by avoiding Dutch waters, the British Government could demonstrate its respect for the Neutrals which was worth more than one Battlecruiser and 2 destroyers.
Churchill also advised that Tyrwhit was still very keen to undertake the Heligoland raid as soon as the necessary repairs were made to his ships. Churchill supported this as the German defences would be further weakened by the loss of so many light units. It was agreed that this raid would take place as soon as practical, Admiral Scott who was present to advise the committee on the gunnery performance suggested they wait until fire control directors could be made available for all of the Battlecruisers. He advised that this could be done in 4 weeks as the orders for the equipment had been placed some time ago. Churchill also suggested that given his excellent performance it would be appropriate for Commodore Tyrwhit to strike his broad pennant and hoist his flag.
The destruction of two British battlecruisers could not help but impact on ship design, Churchill suggested that they freeze any battlecruiser construction until the lessons from the battle could be learnt and then be implemented in future ship design. Admiral Fisher was seen to be looking very unhappy at this statement by the First Lord. It was agreed after heated discussion that more needed to be done with the battlecruisers and they weren't much good if they kept blowing up, it was also appreciated that the German Battlecruisers seemed to have the same defect.
Lloyd George then continued the meeting with a discussion of the economic affairs of the Empire. He noted that foreign sentiment towards the strength of the British Empire was broadly positive and that the bond raising had been successful, in light of that the Bank of England had agreed to continue full convertibility of the Pound.
He also spoke of the work of the purchasing commissioners and their work with the County Territorial Associations to manage recruitment, it was accepted that men whose skills were of value to the war economy would not be allowed to join the forces. Local employers were submitting lists of men whose skills were vital to war work to the county associations to prevent their enlistment. In addition, the county associations were generating lists of men who could be enlisted without detriment to the war economy, they would be contacted as recruitment inevitably waned for service. The initial focus would be unmarried men between the age of 21 and 27, in addition the Officer Training Corps was expanded with new units being formed to generate a suitable supply of junior officers, whilst shielding those who possessed critical skills. Junior Division candidates would undertake 12 weeks training prior to deployment provided they were over 21 and Senior Division candidates 8 weeks again provided they were over 21. In addition the Junior division was expanded to cover Grammar Schools.
The survey of industry was going well, limitations on manufacturing had been identified and Lloyd George spoke of a number of them. First and foremost he spoke of skilled manufacturing workers, noting that they lacked the numbers needed. The next major limitation was on machine tools for manufacturing, the discussion centred on the ability of industry to manufacture sufficient machine tools for the expansion of the war economy. It was felt that this subject should be studied and a focus put on looking at ways to improve manufacturing efficiency, but that as much as possible Britain should look to produce more manufacturing equipment at home rather than importing machine tools from the United States.
Lloyd George then spoke of industrial and civil unrest flowing from war and the need to minimise it. A civilian morale study would be undertaken to keep in touch with the public mood. The next thing that was discussed was the fact that many british firms were unwilling to borrow money to bring their manufacturing processes up to date, they felt that the war would be over quickly and they didn’t want to be in a position to have invested in new equipment they could not use. One suggestion which had been implemented was a series of War Loans to industry which would enable the upgrade of plant and equipment. Companies accepting War loans would be able to keep the equipment at the end of the war but would have to make war material on it for the duration of the war unless ordered otherwise. Another item of discussion was the move towards facilitating group manufacturing by smaller firms in which a number of firms would form a group, each firm would make one or more parts of a thing before the parts were consolidated in one location for final assembly. This was felt to be a good way of bringing many of the smaller firms into the war economy whilst still enabling their survival. The importance of consistency of manufacturing processes and quality was seen as a key limiter to many companies doing war work with the risk of shoddy products being clearly identified. The purchasing commissioners would be responsible for ensuring the specifications of all equipment which was to be purchased would include the quality and testing requirements.
Lloyd George then touched on International Finance and the credit ratings of the various countries, noting that the Central powers had been cut out of all financial services provided by London and their attempts to raise money in Switzerland and the United States were failing. He also pointed out that the interest required on Treasury debts had increased but was still manageable and that France and Russia were both able to raise bonds on the London Market, Belgian and Serbian Debt issues had been supported by a Bank of England guarantee and they had both also succeeded. The meeting then moved onto the subject of taxation, with the extent of tax rises needed to cover the war being a thorny subject which occupied the rest of the meeting.