20th century China without Mao

Mao Zedong was without a doubt one of the most important people in the history of modern China.
He lead the Communists through much of the Chinese Civil War and became leader of China for 27 years. During his time as leader, tens of millions would die due to his terrible policies and ideas.
This begs the question, if Mao Zedong never exists, who would take his place? How different would the Chinese Civil War be? Would the worst of Mao (Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution) still happen? Would the Communist Party survive into the 21st century?
 
I doubt the communist could succeed without Mao. many of the factors that allowed the communists to win the civil war (guerrilla warfare, support of the people, and charismatic leadership) would simply not exist or be heavily weakened. the communist had neither weapons nor large armies, so a conventional war would be impractical. likely scenario is that they are wiped out in the late 1940s as if their were another warlord province (albeit one Chang Kai Shek would hate more than the others)
 
It is quite possible that communist China wouldn’t even exist without mao during the long march after the communist Chinese forces were nearly destroyed by the nationalists and they only escaped due to maos maneuvering. Without him the army and movement would be crushed. If the communists due take power and that is somewhat unlikely it would be under completely different leadership and would probably be propped up by the Soviets after they take Manchuria.
 
I doubt the communist could succeed without Mao. many of the factors that allowed the communists to win the civil war (guerrilla warfare, support of the people, and charismatic leadership) would simply not exist or be heavily weakened. the communist had neither weapons nor large armies, so a conventional war would be impractical. likely scenario is that they are wiped out in the late 1940s as if their were another warlord province (albeit one Chang Kai Shek would hate more than the others)
It is quite possible that communist China wouldn’t even exist without mao during the long march after the communist Chinese forces were nearly destroyed by the nationalists and they only escaped due to maos maneuvering. Without him the army and movement would be crushed. If the communists due take power and that is somewhat unlikely it would be under completely different leadership and would probably be propped up by the Soviets after they take Manchuria.
So Mao really was essential to a Communist victory.
No Communist China would also have massive impacts thorough the rest of the century.
 
Yup, probably no 1950s red scare for once. Or at least a much weaker one.
Truman may run in 1952 if there's no Korean War or if there's no "He made us lose China" argument against him.
Not to mention, there is no Korean War to begin with. The DPRK might still exist, but it would be like Cuba, Zimbabwe, or Venezuela today and definitely would not have nukes. Perhaps Korea reunifies somewhere in the 1980s-1990s ITTL?

But without the Taiwan question, the ROC might still be a rival to the United States rather than an ally.

A Sino-American rivalry might still occur.
 
But without the Taiwan question, the ROC might still be a rival to the United States rather than an ally.

A Sino-American rivalry might still occur
Indeed, a common misconception is that the US and KMT were best friends and would remain that way. It’s not true at all.

the KMT was no fan of the west period, and would play more of a middle ground in the Cold War, playing both the Soviets and the US when their goals align with China’s.

Truman may run in 1952 if there's no Korean War or if there's no "He made us lose China" argument against him.


Beyond that, yes, a truman victory in 1952 is now 100% plausible and iwould have some interesting butterflies, as he was against CIA involvement in regime change, and far more critical of red scare warriors than Eisenhower was (though China not becoming communist, as you said, would probably make the red scare tamer)
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
I doubt the communist could succeed without Mao. many of the factors that allowed the communists to win the civil war (guerrilla warfare, support of the people, and charismatic leadership) would simply not exist or be heavily weakened. the communist had neither weapons nor large armies, so a conventional war would be impractical. likely scenario is that they are wiped out in the late 1940s as if their were another warlord province (albeit one Chang Kai Shek would hate more than the others)
I agree with the possibility, even likelihood (at more than even chance) of the outcome you say, CCP do not win and KMT win, and most of your reasoning, but not your timing.

If the KMT wipes out the CCP because of failure of the alternative CCP leadership to come up with the techniques and exhibit the skills that Mao used, the party will be wiped out by the middle/late 1930s. If it survives that long, it will only be because its alternate leaders in Mao's place end up about as skilled and use most of the same techniques. If they do what it takes to survive the Long March and rebuild, and the Sino-Japanese war happens, which will tear down the KMT, the CCP has what it takes to survive WWII and the late forties Civil War, and possibly win the whole thing.

While the issue of total national power might not be decided until the late forties, the issue of survival will be decided by the mid-30s, and the issue of local control in north China's countryside will be decided during the Sino-Japanese war.
 
Not to mention, there is no Korean War to begin with. The DPRK might still exist, but it would be like Cuba, Zimbabwe, or Venezuela today and definitely would not have nukes. Perhaps Korea reunifies somewhere in the 1980s-1990s ITTL?

But without the Taiwan question, the ROC might still be a rival to the United States rather than an ally.

A Sino-American rivalry might still occur.
Yes, Korea may reunify in TTL.
A Sino-American rivalry with less ideological baggage would certainly be interesting.
iwould have some interesting butterflies, as he was against CIA involvement in regime change
Less CIA involvement in regime change...
Maybe the 1953 Iranian coup doesn't happen, or if it does, it fails due to it only being backed by Britain ITTL.
Also depending on whether the next presidents follow Truman's precedent (Low probability but still) we may see a lot less coups in Latin America or other regions that are backed by the US.
If for example the 1964 Brazilian coup fails due to no US support, the reforms being implemented by Jango may continue (Such as land reform) which could make Brazil more industrialized and populous.
 
Got it.
Also your username really fits the topic lol.

Yup, probably no 1950s red scare for once. Or at least a much weaker one.
Truman may run in 1952 if there's no Korean War or if there's no "He made us lose China" argument against him.
im actually writing a alternate history about this scenario, and no a korean war would still break out and truman would still lose/never enter the race. i think korea wouldn't have dragged out so long, but regardless it was always an unpopular move
 
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Who would lead the CCP sans Mao in such a scenario? I imagine the 28 Bolsheviks to become prominent in TTL’s CCP leadership but not really sure aside from that.
 
Yes, Korea may reunify in TTL.
A Sino-American rivalry with less ideological baggage would certainly be interesting.

Less CIA involvement in regime change...
Maybe the 1953 Iranian coup doesn't happen, or if it does, it fails due to it only being backed by Britain ITTL.
Also depending on whether the next presidents follow Truman's precedent (Low probability but still) we may see a lot less coups in Latin America or other regions that are backed by the US.
If for example the 1964 Brazilian coup fails due to no US support, the reforms being implemented by Jango may continue (Such as land reform) which could make Brazil more industrialized and populous.
i don't think CIA involvement would change from a KMT victory, but perhaps anyone but eisenhower being elected would. a red scare would still happen, it's just that the actual scope of successful communist revolutions would be limited to the middle east, africa, and most importantly latin america. by the 1950s/60s i could see several latin countries (costa rica, cuba, nicaragua. guatemala, and other landing into a soviet sphere of influence). the last fact would still freak america out, prompting a red scare.
 
It would definitely be a lot more Economic Development one of the big reasons why Japan invaded China was because of the economic development happening in China
The Chinese say that Mao set China back economically by 20 to 30 years
 
It would definitely be a lot more Economic Development one of the big reasons why Japan invaded China was because of the economic development happening in China
The Chinese say that Mao set China back economically by 20 to 30 years
Agreed with this.
With an earlier Chinese growth, maybe Japan don't grow as rapidly as they did during this period.
Also, this would result in a more technologically advanced world, as you would have China integrated into the world market and rapidly developing, with it expanding its research and development of new technologies and more breakthroughs in many scientific fields.
 
the KMT was no fan of the west period, and would play more of a middle ground in the Cold War, playing both the Soviets and the US when their goals align with China’s.
Yes, Korea may reunify in TTL.
A Sino-American rivalry with less ideological baggage would certainly be interesting.
The reason why the KMT only aligned with the U.S. and the West after WWII was because it got pushed out of the mainland.

Both the U.S. and Chiang distrusted each other. Washington did not like the fact the KMT was riddled with incompetence and corruption and Chiang was critical of foreigners remaining Asia after WWII. It was only the threat of communism that somehow brought the U.S. and the ROC closer.

I like to take an example of @BigVic's Watching From San Diego (POD is Hitler is killed in Operation Valkyrie), the butterflies ensure that the KMT wins the civil war. But Yang Xishan takes over and announces a split from the West. China under Yang then forms the Beijing Pact with the newly independent India as an equivalent to an earlier Non-Aligned Movement. This Beijing Pact is hostile to both the West and the Soviet Union.
 
Communism probably doesn't take hold in China. Mao's military and political theories of Protracted People's Warfare and peasant-proletariat unity against landowners are arguably what saved the CPC even after the Long March.

I imagine more famines, likely some that happen in the 70's or even early 80's. As much as the PRC is rightfully criticized for its actions leading up to and during the Great Chinese Famine, it should be noted that the programs of industrialization and collective farming ultimately ended the cycle of famine in China. Before the Great Chinese Famine, China had approximately 2 (rounded up) recorded famines every decade; China's modern history of famines reported one beginning in 1873, 1879, 1901, 1906, 1920, 1928, 1936, 1942 (although admittedly this was due in large part to the Second Sino-Japanese War), and 1961. The programs put in place by the PRC during and after the Great Chinese Famine and China's drive towards industrialization and modernization largely pushed forward by the CPC are arguably what broke this trend, similar to how the Stalin government in the USSR ended a history of famines in Russia with the last major recorded famine being in 1946 as a direct result of the Second World War.

That being said, while famines may continue for a longer period of time, they'll likely end at some point. This universe's version of the Great Chinese Famine (which would still happen ---the causes of the famine ultimately included natural factors, such as pest infestations, drought, and the 1958 Yellow River Flood alongside poor agricultural techniques; although the CPC shouldn't be totally absolved of blame) would likely have a lower death toll, as well, given that there likely wouldn't be the Pest Extermination Campaign leading to the PRC's War against Sparrows which ultimately did more damage than anyone could've imagined even without the knowledge that sparrows weren't pests (something that the Chinese only learned in the most brutal of ways). I imagine China eventually industrializes due to American and possibly Soviet aid if the CCP is beaten early enough (i.e. before the Second Sino-Japanese War), but it's probably later than OTL. The Soviets probably split with the KMT if they end up backing the Americans in the Korean War or against Soviet influence. I imagine China reaches a recognizable industrialized status in the mid-late 70's to early 80's rather than the late 50's and early-mid 60's. Whether your opinion on it is good or bad, the Great Leap Forward was undeniably a major impetus in Chinese industrialization and led to an explosion in the industrialization, urbanization, and electrification of China, with steel production alone going from 1.3 to 23 million tons produced before and after the Great Leap and electricity improving from 7 million to 133 billion kilowatts-hour (the consumption of 1,000 watts over an hour). I imagine the KMT would maintain a policy of dirigisme similar to India and only begin moving away from indirect state control over the economy by the time they industrialize or maybe before.

The Korean War likely ends in a UN victory with either the destruction of the DPRK or it surviving as a rump state backed up by the USSR in the most remote, northeastern regions of the peninsula. If it's the latter, then it likely becomes even more extreme than OTL, especially without a friendly China on its doorstep. Whether this means it survives or not is up in the air, but I'm leaning on it collapsing after the fall of the USSR (which likely happens around the same time) and the ROK coming in to clean up the pieces. As for the broader geopolitical scene, I imagine that tensions between the ROC and USA would likely be similar to that of the PRC and USA IOTL minus the initial hostility and likely with some extra hostility near the mid-end of the Cold War. China likely still remains an ally against the USSR but that probably becomes more and more nominal as the US begins encroaching against Chinese influence in Asia and the KMT keeps up its (at least public) anti-imperialist image. Vietnam, and by extension Laos likely don't change, and it's nearly guaranteed hat Cambodia goes through no Khmer Rouge and either remains a monarchy or ultimately turns to more mainstream Marxism-Leninism with the aid of Vietnam, Laos, and probably the USSR. Peru, the Philippines, and India's own communist insurrections are going to be a lot different without a Maoist China given that the CPI-M and Shining Path are both Marxist-Leninist-Maoist organizations (not "Maoist" like you might think of; Mao Zedong Thought, Socialism with Chinese Characteristics, and Marxism-Leninism-Maoism are all different things) but I imagine they'd still ultimately be Maoist given that Mao's most influential contributions to Marxism (On Contradiction and On Protracted War) all happened before the establishment of the PRC.

I wonder how a capitalist, or at least semi-capitalist, China would approach Japan during the Japanese Economic Miracle. Could we see a budding Asian economic organization between China, Japan, and maybe Korea?
 
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