Welcome back! You mention the shipping savings... In this ATL would the British really let Weygand and Roosevelt delay those savings by 9 months? Especially when during this period the second "happy time" has happened off the US east coast and a whole new war has started with Japan? The British are strong enough and confident enough ITTL to simply tell Weygand they're working on a deadline. Roosevelt may want to play diplomatic games, but among the major support the Americans expect from Britain is shipping...
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
allanpcameron
Donor
Thanks, but trying to stick mostly to tank related things whenever possible. Not sure if Midway will happen, as the Japanese haven't secured Java etc.
Allan
Would the Japanese still go down that path? By this point in OTL they had conquered most of South East Asia, ITTL they’ve been pushed back in Malaya and are struggling in the DEI.
Surely they’d have to risk the Navy to win in Malaya and the DEI? The whole point of attacking was getting their hands on the resources of the colonies, if they don’t have the resources they’re screwed no matter what. Tbh I’m not too knowledgable on Japan in WW2, so maybe they think they can win the Decisive Battle with the USA first and then focus on Malaya/DEI.
They shouldn’t have the Victory Disease they did in OTL, they battered Pearl Harbour and have the Philippines but they aren’t even close to winning in South East Asia.
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Looks like given the British and Commonwealth's much stronger position is causing the USA to breathe easier compared to OTL, it also means more pressure to bear on the Vichy North Africa and other French colonise. Also means that the US forces can ease more into the role though getting at French North African Manpower would be a god send.
Their Levant territories are in a prickly situation right now with the fall of Rhodes to they will he feeling the pressure so they may flip before North Africa.
Their Levant territories are in a prickly situation right now with the fall of Rhodes to they will he feeling the pressure so they may flip before North Africa.
Wouldn't the IJN be more likely to try and go after the RN and the Dutch I mean they did humiliate them with that harbour raid.
Garrison
Donor
Well even if they have altered the objective, and the IJN being the IJN that's not guaranteed, the Americans should still be aware of it, indeed given the setbacks for the Japanese there should be more opportunities to acquire codebooks etc. and read their traffic.
If Imperial Japan know unit headquarters are being overrun in Southeast Asia that gives them possible reason to worry about code books being potentially captured and security compromised and to be changing their codes more often - or at least the army ones.
Garrison
Donor
Given their track record, and that of the Germans on that score I think that is an optimistic view to say the least.
Looking at things from a British perspective if my primary objective was to get as large and as good a US Army contingent in the ETO for a 1943 invasion of France an independent US invasion of Morocco is brilliant.
- It gets US troops on the ground and in the fight so preventing them being drawn off to the Pacific.
- It's an all US operation, so no need to ruffle feathers about having US troops under British command or ruffle Dominion feathers by giving a small US contingent a disproportionate leadership role that a joint operation would bring.
- It's a target that's easy enough that the US can't disastrously fail but complicated enough that they'll have a more realistic understanding of the difficulties of a cross channel invasion.
- It can help secure North Africa and free up a million tons of shipping so it's worth doing in it's own right.
Assuming the US forces don’t botch it, remember a lot of their army is still pretty green and their staffs are shaking out it could go a bit pear shaped.
Will the IJA tell the IJN of such setbacks?
Will the IJN consider the compromise of an Army cipher to be sufficient reason to roll out a new naval codebook?
IOTL the Japanese Army and Navy would go out of their way to keep the other from finding out what actually happened to them, to the point that it sometimes took the Emperor level to get them to "Play Nice". Loosing a HQ might not even make it past the next higher because they will se that as a failure on their own part and want to cover it up. The only way the Navy will learn about some of the setbacks by the army will be if they loose a port or have an IJN airfield overun by the allies. The Army will learn about losses by the Navy like an island say, by finding out they don't have troops any more. Remember the Navy was going to write off the Army troops in Guadalcanal and not even let evacuate them at the end of the campaign.
They're absolutely going to botch it. The US has never done anything comparable to this and their staffs are very green. But the French don't want to fight and there is no one nearby who does. So when the US 1st Armoured Division takes 5 times as long as planned to get ashore it's not really going to matter and most importantly with people like Marshall and Ike involved these unavoidable errors are going to get noticed and taken account of before the US has to do it for real against the Germans.
The long range attack on Midway by the Japanese using amphibian tanks came as a complete surprise
Carried in the hangers instead of the float planes or on deck like the Kaiten?The long range attack on Midway by the Japanese using amphibian tanks came as a complete surprise
Instead of amphibian tanks, maybe the IJN could fly a new generation of Zeroes with 75mm autocannons, sufficient armor to withstand tank shells, and the other requisite changes to keep their speed and aerobatic capabilities.
I think you missed they were joking around. In any-case it isn't possible, as the Zero's abilities came at the expense of literally everything else (you could put a finger through the hull if you were not careful), even adding better weapons would tip it from fragile speedster into useless territory. Especially since its not actually that much faster than even the Hurricane, let alone the late war Allied Carrier borne fighters and unlike them it can't carry the weight of a really good weapons fit. Hence why (along with the death of almost all the pre war pilot cohort by late 1942) why it quickly went from superstar to meat for Allied defenses.
What's really needed is a completely new fighter but once war starts its a bit late for that as Japan simply doesn't have the RnD to produce what's needed before the hammer falls. It has to be remembered that even the Shinden from Godzilla minus one only flew twice literally as the nukes were dropping and that (for all it looks cool) was a short range area defense fighter. Something like the Hellcat or Corsair (a fully modern fighter able to carry a decent war load while leaving the Zero in the dust) would need time they don't have, especially as the Allies are at least three months ahead of where they were OTL with far lower looses of territory during the Japanese offensive.
Another point in favour of the US going into North Africa is that the British already soured their relationship with the French via the Mers El Kebir attack. I believe that still happened ITTL? It's a reasonable fear that another attack on nominally neutral Vichi territory, especially the most important one besides metropolitan France itself, could move Vichi france from Axis-subservient neutral to full on Axis power. If the Americans do it, since they still have a friendly relationship with the French that's less likely and, in the worst case scenario, the US cannot blame the UK for turning the French against them if the attack was carried out and botched by US forces.