Malê Rising

It's still the colonial era - I imagine that the pre-1900 nations will be a good bit more willing to step in and "restore order" than they would be 2013 OTL...

Bruce

Even with a post-war intervention, it's going to be a mess.

:confused: im fairly sure you're wrong here. Why do you think that? Counties, countries and, i believe, continents take the article.

Lit. 'The Queen in of Africa'? No, that's just wrong. You don't need both 'de' and 'la' in this context in the center to indicate both at once, and the first 'la' would transform the meaning of the phrase. It's been a while since I've used my French outside of academia, but I'm fairly confident that Reine d'Afrique would be the simpler, cleaner, most correct form & usage. Though we're starting to drift from the thread here; PM me if you wish to continue to line of conversation.
 
Lit. 'The Queen in of Africa'? No, that's just wrong. You don't need both 'de' and 'la' in this context in the center to indicate both at once, and the first 'la' would transform the meaning of the phrase. It's been a while since I've used my French outside of academia, but I'm fairly confident that Reine d'Afrique would be the simpler, cleaner, most correct form & usage. Though we're starting to drift from the thread here; PM me if you wish to continue to line of conversation.

Actually, it would be Reine de l'Afrique. As someone currently in French Immersion.
 
Good update as usual.
To my gut feeling, La Reine de l'Afrique and (La) Reine d'Afrique sound both acceptable, though with a subtly different nuance of meaning. Reine de l'Afrique could work as well (as in, the article being not part of the boat's name but still used in context). However I admit that my French is somewhat rusted, so do not take this for sure. On the other hand, Italian works quite like French in this department of grammar and all the equivalent forms would be grammatically correct in my language; this should be generally true for Spanish and (I think) Portuguese as well for similar cases.
However, I may be missing some specific rule here.

On a more general note, International Congo was practically bound to become unmanageable catastrophe as the powers involved start to fight each other. It's going to be a unholy mess, and think wolf_brother is right, it will likely be a lasting mess unless a very wise postwar arrangement can be found, which may prove tricky to sort out and even trickier to enforce on the ground. If the BOG side wins big enough, they might just throw the whole thing to the Portuguese in exchange for a lasting benevolent neutrality, with some peripheral bits to Germans and "Omanis". The minor powers like Sweden and such will be compensated with cash.
But I doubt it could work simply or nicely.
 
They would, but a ship called African Queen versus Queen of Africa does sound a lot better. Both in French and in English.:)

*Shrug* I was trying state what Jonathan Edelstein meant, if I might get away with that much arrogance in assumption. But this is an odd detail to get hung up on.

Corporate Congo is falling apart into warlordism.

Our third generation of heros still stand in the shadow of the first.

And Tanganyika seems more and more like a British dominion in all-but-name.
 
*Shrug* I was trying state what Jonathan Edelstein meant, if I might get away with that much arrogance in assumption. But this is an odd detail to get hung up on.

Corporate Congo is falling apart into warlordism.

Our third generation of heros still stand in the shadow of the first.

And Tanganyika seems more and more like a British dominion in all-but-name.
Oh, no. I just liked the sound of African Queen, so I just gave my opinion. I apologise if I sound a bit stuck on that notion.

I am, however,interested in the fate of Oman. What are the Sultan's troops doing, other than attempting to consolidate Tanganyika?

And also, I'd love an update concerning Indian troops on the European Front. Not enough love for them.
 
First of all, I think I'll make La reine africaine canonical, given that it was the French title of the film.

International Congo is definitely a mess. Some parts aren't as bad as others - I've mentioned that Bas-Congo is run by a neutral Spanish governor who's a strong ruler and strict with the rubber companies, and Dietmar Köhler, who's a competent administrator and includes Africans in the upper ranks of his government and army, isn't so bad if you can get past the fact that he's a ruthless warlord. But for the most part, the provincial governors and rubber companies are trying to fight their countries' enemies, carve out vest-pocket kingdoms for themselves, or both. There will also be a couple of African armies and would-be warlords in the mix, and some of them may have a touch of the apocalyptic.

The war in the Congo will involve small numbers of troops compared to the main African theaters, let alone the European ones, but it will be a nasty, give-no-quarter sort of war, with rubber, labor and land as the prize. And it will spill over into the neighboring countries - this won't be the only time the Anglo-Omani empire gets involved. Some of the Congo may well be administered de facto by the Anglo-Omanis, the Portuguese or the French by war's end.

The European powers won't hesitate to intervene after the war, whoever wins - given that the Congo is an international mandate rather than an independent state, they'll see themselves as having every right to do so. Reconstructing a functioning administration will be another story, though, and bringing some of the warlords to heel may be easier said than done. The Congo will occupy an inordinate amount of attention at the peace conference.

Tanganyika: As Falecius says, much of it is British in all but name at this point, and has been getting steadily more so for some time. That isn't the case everywhere, though - where there's a strong indigenous ruler who has won a place in the Omani nobility, or where the local feudalist is present rather than an absentee, there's more autonomy. The British have been good at creating and filling power vacuums, but they haven't interfered directly where strong local power structures exist.

The Sultan's army at this point is guarding the Ethiopian frontier in case Menelik II decides to jump into the war, and now that the Congo conflicts are starting to spill over, he's raising more regiments to protect his western provinces. If Ethiopia stays quiet, the Omani-Zanzibari empire may also become a secondary source of troops for other British theaters.

And Indian troops will certainly be appearing - all things in time.

Finally, a question for wolf_brother and Falecius: What would the Pope's likely reaction be to the seizure of Rome by an anti-clerical Italian state during a period of global warfare? Is there a chance of another Avignon papacy, or would he be more likely to retreat into the Vatican like Pius IX did in OTL?
 
Related to the above, and I'm sure this has been asked before but I don't recall the answer, how far do you plan to take this timeline? We've all been anticipating the Great War for so long it's almost hard to think of a point beyond that.

I'd originally planned to take it up to Usman Abacar's death, with epilogues taking the family (and, through their eyes, the world) through the next century, but at this point I'm planning to finish in 2005 with a valedictory post in the present day. I have things sketched out through 1920, subject to change as events unfold, and a rough idea of what happens after that. Most likely I'll do 1900 through 1960 in ten-year cycles, and then 1960 through 2005 in 15-year cycles, but that also isn't etched in stone.
 
Jonathon, given the bad memories of Avignon, I suspect that if the Italians did grab Rome, the Pope would again hole up in the Vatican. By doing so, he maintains his claim and is politically embarassing to them. A Pope outside the country can be easily ignored.
There is also the point that the Pope's whole position revolves around him being the Bishop of Rome, heir to Peter. Difficult to execute away from it.
 
The issue regarding the Papacy might be that the Pope can't hold up in the Vatican. IOTL the Savoyards were slow to take Rome, and willing to let Pius hole up in the Vatican; after all by the 19th century it was just one building complex, if large, within the Holy See prior to the Unification. The Savoyards took the Pope's Quirinal Palace as their own. ITTL however the Italians might move quicker for fear of intervention, or to free up forces for other theaters and allow for a quick propaganda coup de grâce. As well, especially depending on how the current Pope takes all this, they might not be inclined to allow the Papacy to continue to hold court in Rome, if said Pope stays in the metropole at all instead of fleeing.

Regarding Avignon, I doubt we'd see the Pope flee there. For one, the current Bonapartist Emperor is just as anti-clerical as his father, or at least was IOTL. Related to that France hasn't exactly been a very friendly environment, either IOTL or ITTL, for the Papacy for sometime by the 1890s.

More likely, if he flees to anywhere, it would have been to Spain - that was where Pius planned to go in 1848 if things turned out for the worst, and it's where he was urged to flee to during the republican invasions of the late 1860s and finally during the Savoyards capture of the city. Even after Pius many Cardinals were all for giving up Rome, at least temporarily, in order to gather their strength and find allies.
 

Hnau

Banned
Excellent piece of fiction with Paulo Abacar the Younger! That's some great action. :)

My question on Italy is this: would Italy be more radical, less conservative, less religious, and/or less Catholic because of the Rome Question being stretched out for so much longer? It seems like over the decades a lot more anger would build up among the Italian populace, perhaps influencing them to take a different cultural direction. If the invasion of Rome is more violent and the Pope treated with less courtesy than OTL, on the other hand, there could be more of a reaction against such radicalism in generations after as the story gets repeated. I see a good chance of Italian culture and politics being much more polarized between clerical and anti-clerical forces, between conservative Catholics and radical non-Catholics.
 
Regarding Italy, I wonder if the divide between left and right, between republicans and monarchist, might not be sharper ITTL. With such a long, drawn out Roman Question, I'm sure there were more incursions and attempts to take Rome by republican filibusters, and certainly leftist uprisings. The Roman Question will likely divide Italian society more so than it did IOTL; here the left has been tirelessly working towards Italian unification, no matter what the cost, for some six decades, where as the Savoyards have proven themselves capable administrators of law & order, and brought security to the Italian people from both enemies without and within. We haven't talked much about Italy because she hasn't the colonies or the presence in Africa, the main focus of the TL, that the other European powers do, but I wonder if perhaps, more so than France or Germany, or even Austria-Hungary, it is in Italy where internal stresses might led to an eruption that changes the face of their particular theater in the war. Italian Revolution; USSR of Italy, as it were, to play off a common trope. I do wonder what role the radical left will play in this war.
 
My question on Italy is this: would Italy be more radical, less conservative, less religious, and/or less Catholic because of the Rome Question being stretched out for so much longer? It seems like over the decades a lot more anger would build up among the Italian populace, perhaps influencing them to take a different cultural direction. If the invasion of Rome is more violent and the Pope treated with less courtesy than OTL, on the other hand, there could be more of a reaction against such radicalism in generations after as the story gets repeated. I see a good chance of Italian culture and politics being much more polarized between clerical and anti-clerical forces, between conservative Catholics and radical non-Catholics.

Definitely all what you said.
 
Regarding Italy, I wonder if the divide between left and right, between republicans and monarchist, might not be sharper ITTL. With such a long, drawn out Roman Question, I'm sure there were more incursions and attempts to take Rome by republican filibusters, and certainly leftist uprisings. The Roman Question will likely divide Italian society more so than it did IOTL; here the left has been tirelessly working towards Italian unification, no matter what the cost, for some six decades, where as the Savoyards have proven themselves capable administrators of law & order, and brought security to the Italian people from both enemies without and within. We haven't talked much about Italy because she hasn't the colonies or the presence in Africa, the main focus of the TL, that the other European powers do, but I wonder if perhaps, more so than France or Germany, or even Austria-Hungary, it is in Italy where internal stresses might led to an eruption that changes the face of their particular theater in the war. Italian Revolution; USSR of Italy, as it were, to play off a common trope. I do wonder what role the radical left will play in this war.

Interesting idea.
IOTL, Italy saw quite a good deal of social agitation at this time, that the government tended to respond machinegunning protesters at leisure.
I see some differences ITTL. the left is both stronger and more radical, but on the other hand the right is pissed of at the reactionary Catholic power and the Pope so might be somewhat more liberal itself.
I see the country as being generally a little bit better off than TLon average, though not very much. I think that suffrage would be extended earlier and more widely, which would be critical in tying most of the population to the new state an limit the insurgencies of th sixties.
Avoiding the colonial money sink also helps.
OTOH, as repeatedly pointed out, Rome will be a running sore, and a unifying force for the nation, as in, something both the left and the right agree upon (though they disagree about how to get it).
Social tensions WILL erupt however, and, if Italy gets BOGged down in trench warfare in the Alps on two fronts, things might get very nasty very quickly. There will be a LOT of unrest after the war, as there was IOTL actually (both in 1898, after the wars in Ethiopia, and after OTL's Great War).
The Pope might either hole up in Rome or flee, most likely to Spain, which would put quite a pressure on some Spanish parties to support involvement in the war to retake Rome. I see the Italian government much less willing to let the Pope in Rome here.
 
OTOH, as repeatedly pointed out, Rome will be a running sore, and a unifying force for the nation, as in, something both the left and the right agree upon (though they disagree about how to get it).

As they say, the devil's in the details. The republicans want Rome yesterday, and have been trying to take it for generations at this point. The monarchists want it as well, some just to make the left shut up about it, but the majority will be nationalists in their own way; either way they just want to go about taking the metropolis as safely & surely as possible. There's quite a gap between those two routes though they both end at the same place.

I wonder what your thoughts would be on ITTL's Italian governments' reaction to something like the Fasci Siciliani - IOTL they popped up about this time.
 
As they say, the devil's in the details. The republicans want Rome yesterday, and have been trying to take it for generations at this point. The monarchists want it as well, some just to make the left shut up about it, but the majority will be nationalists in their own way; either way they just want to go about taking the metropolis as safely & surely as possible. There's quite a gap between those two routes though they both end at the same place.

I wonder what your thoughts would be on ITTL's Italian governments' reaction to something like the Fasci Siciliani - IOTL they popped up about this time.

Well, if, as we reasoned upthread, there's Crispi in charge ITTL as well, I expect a crackdown not very different from OTL though maybe marginally less severe.
 
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