Admittedly, while I have the rump United States as the most likely contender for the Western Reserve, the issue is that New York probably won't go down without a fight and there's the whole matter of the Erie Triangle to deal with. I have a major feeling that it will be super ugly. Honestly, I could write a whole chapter or two about Ohio if I wanted to. Southern Ohio in particular should be a notable backdrop for major conflict with multiple states competing for it. I'm not so sure about Tennessee-Kentucky though since I'm not sure they'll full on unite with Virginia to keep them being drowned out by Richmond but the southern parts of Ohio, Illinois, and Indiana were largely settled by people from the upper south IOTL if I recall correctly. We'll see how this plays out.
America Without a Bay: A Divided Country
- Thread starter PGSBHurricane
- Start date
New England (and the rump US as well) should beat New York in a straight fight in the 1790s-1800s. The giant New York as we know it IOTL was still far in the future. Plus, right now it might make sense for the rump US and New England to gang up on New York.
The issue is that, it had no direct access to the lake - so it would need to conquer part of Western NY (which should be feasible within the 1790s-1800s, especially with a British alliance). Without direct Great Lake access, sure it would have lost out, though. However, IMO it could at least hold on to OTL Michigan and maybe Wisconsin with Lake access.
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I think that a more viable way to get direct access to the Great Lakes would be to wrassle away enough of the Adirondacks region from New York so that it directly touches Lake Ontario or at least the St. Lawrence River. The question is, how plausible is that? In any case I just want to hammer out the treaties ending the wars in the north and south before I get to westward expansion. It will be interesting when I get there though. I also want to focus a little more on Europe too.
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The potential gruesome body count plausible for the battlefields of upstate New York gives one pause....
Of course this is merely assuming something like that does end up playing out, which I decide I might not do after all.
Chapter Six: Tying Up the Loose Ends of War, For Now
Chapter Six: Tying Up the Loose Ends of War, For Now
As of March 1791, Vermont’s status was up in the air as far as anyone could tell. The plebiscite that would determine its fate occurred in July. Options included joining the British province of Quebec or the Republic of New England, maintaining its independence as a separate republic, or merging into New York. Most Vermonters viewed a merger with New York as a near-death sentence by most Vermonters, so much so that joining British Quebec was preferable, even if that was a last resort. This idea had been toyed with during the North American War of Independence when representatives from Vermont negotiated to join British Quebec. Negotiations broke down in response to the British surrender at Yorktown in 1781, and the independence of the Thirteen Colonies was near certain. After the Revolution, it became clear Vermont only intended to maintain independence temporarily, and eventual admission into the United States was its goal since it could not survive on its own indefinitely. This goal fell apart in 1790 as New York withdrew from the Articles of Confederation and split the United States in half, effectively declaring the Union void. This meant that the only viable choice would be to join New England, with the remaining question being to merge with New Hampshire, as it had previously claimed the territory, or as a separate state. In July 1791, Vermont voted to join the Republic of New England as a state, which New York reluctantly accepted.
The resolution process in the southern part of the old USA was more tumultuous than one might expect. A ceasefire was declared on October 20, 1791, and negotiations would begin on February 7, 1792. While there were some representatives of the natives in attendance, the main parties in negotiations were the governments of the Confederacy of Greater Carolina, Kentucky, and Virginia. On one hand, North Carolina still legally owned all the land between the Appalachians and the Mississippi River between Georgia to the south and the nations of Virginia and Kentucky to the North. On the other hand, the Blue Ridge Mountains effectively served as a barrier to settlement until the 1770s, when migration began in defiance of the Proclamation of 1763. Initially refusing to recognize any of these new settlements, they developed their own culture independent of North Carolina and subsequently refused willful subjugation by their parent state for several years. It was clear something would have to give. Eventually, both parties would find a semi-suitable compromise. North Carolina would grant the over-mountain men their independence as soon as the conflict with the Cherokees and Creeks concluded. The Cumberland settlers feared for their safety, which North Carolina saw as a concern about potential independence. The only caveat was that North Carolina and the CGC would keep the territory that formerly comprised the unrecognized state and country of Franklin.
With tentative agreements made on the future of Tennessee, the focus shifted to the natives. A proposed settlement with the Cherokee would dictate how they would interact with the white settlers surrounding them in all directions. They would legally be under the protection of the Confederacy of Greater Carolina, Virginia, Kentucky, and later Tennessee. While it established initial terms, raids on Cumberland Valley settlers in the Cumberland Valley occurred in the spring and continued into the summer before warfare resumed six months later following another invasion of the area led by the Chickamauga Cherokees (under the Chief Doublehead). Muskogee warriors led a raid on the eastern districts in Tennessee the following year. In October 1793, the climactic battle at Etowah Cliffs led to a Cherokee defeat and later to a peace treaty between the Cherokees and the southern state governments in June 1794 that reaffirmed land cessions to these states. On November 7, 1794, another treaty recognized the formal end of the conflict with the Cherokee and required no additional land cessions. The Muscogee then turned solely to the Chickasaw, which was a much smaller, less prominent affair. Tenessee's independence would soon be finalized as a result. Its fate would be further cemented when, to avoid dependence on the Spanish, a merger with Kentucky would take effect, and it would become part of the new nation of Transylvania, allied to Virginia.
There was one part of the North American Continent that New England, New York, the rump United States of America, Virginia, and Transylvania all pursued: the old Northwest Territory. Dating back to colonial times, the states of Connecticut, Massachusetts, New York, and Virginia claimed parts of the territory. New York gave up its claims first, ceding everything west of Lake Ontario to the new United States in 1782. Virginia followed suit in 1784 and let go of all its claims north of the Ohio River. In 1785, Massachusetts ceded its western lands, which were based on the original sea-to-sea grant from the British Crown. Finally, in 1786, Connecticut relinquished its claims, outside the Western Reserve. All bets were off when New York withdrew from the Articles of Confederation in 1790. They immediately reclaimed all of its ceded territory north of the Ohio River. In reality, they put much of their focus on Ohio Country, which was a volatile battleground between the states, the British, and Native Americans. In addition to the Western Reserve in the Northeast of Ohio Country, New Englanders under the Ohio Company of Associates settled the southeastern portion in 1788 at Marietta along the Ohio River. That same year, John Cleves Symmes of New Jersey purchased roughly 487 square miles of land between the Great Miami River and the Little Miami River. Even Virginia, which only had the Virginia Military District along the Ohio River, started opening the district to settlement. Things would soon shortly come to a head, all while things in Europe were also escalating.
Map of the Ex-United States Circa 1794-95
The next chapter will primarily focus on Europe, particularly France, and how the French government evolves for better or worse. In the meantime, here is a tentative map of much of the former United States (east of the Mississippi River) circa 1794-95. The reason the Northwestern Territory isn't colored is because of how it's HEAVILY disputed at this time.
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Wow , how many cowtries will we get in north america at this rate ? also a map would be good
Thanks. Right now there are six countries. Florida is still Spanish and northern Maine is likely in British hands at this point since New England probably wouldn't want to get on the bad side of the British. You can argue five countries to a degree since Transylvania is in a very loose confederation (more like an alliance) with Virginia and debatably an extension of it, but it isn't an outright confederation since they don't want to get overpowered by Richmond. And there probably will be a few more to come before 1900 at this point.
Nice! Can I ask some questions if thats okay with you?
What will be the Eire canals effects in this tl?
How powerful are the nations currently?
How are their relations with Europe?
How will they do in the Industrial Revolution?
What will be the Eire canals effects in this tl?
How powerful are the nations currently?
How are their relations with Europe?
How will they do in the Industrial Revolution?
Thats hard to imagine, does that mean a more settled ar less settled north america ?, competition between the cowntries could accelerate that process, but maybe not
Right now I haven’t gotten to the Erie Canal but I will get to that one soon. As far as these nations go, I would say that they are currently no match for any of the European powers by themselves but as a group, the rump United States (mid-Atlantic) and New England are the most powerful states based on population with Virginia being the premiere regional power in the South and New York still powerful in its own right. Their relations with Europe are still in flux as we haven’t quite gotten to the situation in France yet and IOTL the French Revolution impacted relations a lot. Overall though I’d say New England is the most pro-British and the southern nations are the most anti-British. Industrially they probably will correspond roughly with OTL but I haven’t planned that yet.
West of the Mississippi River, it will almost certainly be less settled without a United States being the continental force it was OTL. They will probably be under European (or Mexican) rule for longer than OTL.
It could be cool to see mexico be the great empire in north america by having all the lands eas of the mississipi , with england having oregon and maybe something more , compared to otl, really mexico and the UK could be the big boys with such a fractured US .
Trust me, the whole battle for the Northwestern Territory will be a battle royale-sized jousting match. So I am almost sure they will get something.
I just posted a revised version of the map which now features Rupert's Land as well as all Spanish claims west of the Mississippi River. Like the Old Northwest, the Pacific Northwest isn't colored in because it's heavily disputed/effectively unchartered. As for the next update, I'm hoping to discuss the French Revolution although there are tons of directions it could go in since America collapsed early on itself. I also just verified a couple of chapters back that Kentucky and Virginia had withdrawn from the articles of Confederation in the spring of 1791 for clarification.
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Hi everyone,
Happy belated New Year and I hope to update this timeline as soon as I can. Still developing ideas for the next chapter (especially regarding Europe) and working on other projects at the same time, hence the delay.
Happy belated New Year and I hope to update this timeline as soon as I can. Still developing ideas for the next chapter (especially regarding Europe) and working on other projects at the same time, hence the delay.
For the next chapter, I am currently considering having Marquis de Lafayette in a major role since he had a fairly close relationship with many of the Founding Fathers so odds are he's paying at least some attention to what's going on in North America. I'm just not sure how to make it work right now.
Does Lafayette get exiled by the Revolution? If there are any conflict between the various governments, one (if not all) would definitely invite him to be a general.