WI: Henry VII’s lifespan was as long as his mother’s

[RedKing]

On this day, Henry VII passed away at the age of 52. He was succeeded by his son, Henry VIII who broke his betrothal to Eleanor of Austria and married Catherine of Aragon instead. As we all know, this led to the King’s Great Matter and the split between the Church of England and the Catholic Church back in Rome. But what if never happened? What if Henry VII lived as long as his mother, dying sometime in 1523 at the age of 66?

Obviously Henry is going to marry Eleanor of Austria in around 1512 here and have a children with her by 1515 at the latest. Henry VII is going to want a grandson asap after all. Secondly, James IV probably survives his otl death date since without Catherine of Aragon Flodden is butterflied. Speaking of which, would England still get involved in the War of the League of Cambrai in alt? In otl, Henry VIII wanted to restore England’s possessions in France and get in the pope’s favour. I’m not sure if Henry VII would do that here though, he’d little interest in warfare and would probably try and wrangle some trade deal or similar with France in this scenario. How does Henry VII handle Charles V wavering on whether to marry Mary Tudor here? Would he wait until he makes a decision or break the betrothal and marry her to someone else here? I could see it going either way tbh.

Lastly, as Henry VIII reaches adulthood, would he try to get more involved in the governance of the realm or would he simply wait until Henry VII croaks it? I could see Henry VII giving Henry VIII more freedoms here as he ages. Also, might Henry VII remarry here or would he remain a widower? Could an alt English reformation occur and if so, how?

 

[Dragonboy]

I could see Henry VII using his remaining time teaching Hal all that he can about temperance, good administration and managing the money. The result is not a hotteaded teenage taking the throne but a much mature Henry VIII with a better understanding of ruling.

I think Henry VII would make a pretty good argument and win Charles V for his mary, while isabella goes toa convent.

And i don't think he would have remarried. He loved Elizabeth dearly and the whole point of their marriage was to unite the lines of York and Lancaster.

 

[RedKing]

ould see Henry VII using his remaining time teaching Hal all that he can about temperance, good administration and managing the money. The result is not a hotteaded teenage taking the throne but a much mature Henry VIII with a better understanding of ruling.

True, he’d definitely spend his time wisely to make sure Henry Jr is as qualified as he can be to rule England. He’d also probably oversee his Grandkid’s early education too. It would avoid Henry VIII dumping a lot his responsibilities on Thomas Wolsey in alt.

I think Henry VII would make a pretty good argument and win Charles V for his mary, while isabella goes toa convent.

Definitely. Heck, he could even wait until Ferdinand calls his bluff and fails to name someone else the heir to Castile and Aragon. He would scrap the whole thing immediately like Henry anyways.

And i don't think he would have remarried. He loved Elizabeth dearly and the whole point of their marriage was to unite the lines of York and Lancaster.

Hmm, this is true though he did seriously considering remarrying in otl and almost remarried to Giovanna of Naples. Granted, the potential brides (and Giovanna) were ordered to look like Elizabeth. Then again, if Henry had issue with Eleanor then he more than likely doesn’t remarries.

 

[Dragonboy]

Happy that you agree with my points.

Mary gets to be Queen of Spain and Holy Roman Empress, Margaret's husband doesnt die attacking her home country and Hal has a beautiful wife at his side from a top bloodline who will give him sons and daughters.

 

[raharris1973]

Henry VII, especially if he's less venturesome and combative against France, may keep providing continuous patronage to the Cabots' North American exploratory activities, and if and when they die, to the activities of others Bristol based explorers.

 

[Grey Wolf]

Henry VIII as president of the council of the North?

 

[RedKing]

Mary gets to be Queen of Spain and Holy Roman Empress, Margaret's husband doesnt die attacking her home country and Hal has a beautiful wife at his side from a top bloodline who will give him sons and daughters.

I have seen some people say that if Charles married Mary, Ferdinand would've been able to declare Ferdinand of Austria his heir. Granted, considering the time frame I say it'd be a bit late for him to do it, so Mary would probably get to be Queen of Spain and Holy Roman Empress here. Without Isabella of Austria, Charles lacks someone to serve as Regent for Spain. Maybe Germaine of Foix or a Catherine of Aragon who has returned to Spain could do it?

Speaking of which, what happens to Catherine of Aragon? Is she eventually allowed to return home, I'd imagine she would be.

Henry VII, especially if he's less venturesome and combative against France, may keep providing continuous patronage to the Cabots' North American exploratory activities, and if and when they die, to the activities of others Bristol based explorers.

This is true, as word of Spanish gold reaches England he'd probably send a few explorers to North America to see if he can get anything. Maybe an earlier English presence in the Carribean?

Henry VIII as president of the council of the North?

That would be a good position to put him in while he is learning the ropes of Kingship. Especially, since neighbouring (and likely peaceful) Scotland is right beside him, so he would be able to conduct diplomacy while not needing to worry about a war.

 

[Dragonboy]

I can totally see Catherine as Charles' regent of spain! Plus she would be happy to see her sister again.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I can totally see Catherine as Charles' regent of spain! Plus she would be happy to see her sister again.

Plot twist: Katherine of Aragon ends up as English proxy as third wife to Louis XII. She then has a son with him and serves as regent of France

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Plot twist: Katherine of Aragon ends up as English proxy as third wife to Louis XII. She then has a son with him and serves as regent of France

Omg yeeeees!

 

[RedKing]

I can totally see Catherine as Charles' regent of spain! Plus she would be happy to see her sister again.

She would be likely be happy to see her sister again indeed. She would also make an excellent regent. She could also remarry to Manuel I of Portugal here.

Plot twist: Katherine of Aragon ends up as English proxy as third wife to Louis XII. She then has a son with him and serves as regent of France

Omg yeeeees!

That would be extremely interesting too. It could also serve as part of a peace treaty with Burgundy and France. Maybe to strengthen the proxy case they could retroactively decide that Catherine had consummated her marriage to Arthur so that in the eyes of the church so that way she really is Henry viii’s sister.

 

[Dragonboy]

Burgundy will stay with the Habsburgs under Charles and Mary's second son.

 

[material_boy]

Speaking of which, would England still get involved in the War of the League of Cambrai in alt? In otl, Henry VIII wanted to restore England’s possessions in France and get in the pope’s favour. I’m not sure if Henry VII would do that here though, he’d little interest in warfare and would probably try and wrangle some trade deal or similar with France in this scenario.

It's hard to imagine Henry VII allowing himself to get sucked into the Italian Wars. He did not share his son's medieval interest in winning glory via feats of arms and seemed to recognize that the era of English supremacy at war had passed with the technological advancements of the late 15th and early 16th centuries. On top of that, war was expensive and Henry was committed to the financial security of the realm. Most importantly, though, I think Henry would have seen war as threatening the legitimacy of his new dynasty -- i.e., if he joined one and lost then he'd basically have achieved a reverse-Agincourt, discrediting himself and his line.

How does Henry VII handle Charles V wavering on whether to marry Mary Tudor here? Would he wait until he makes a decision or break the betrothal and marry her to someone else here? I could see it going either way tbh.

Honestly? I think he'd be totally fine with it As I say above, I think Henry's priority will be avoiding foreign entanglement and so if Charles says he wants a different wife, then Henry would accept that if it kept him out of war. Besides, right next door to Spain there's the unmarried crown prince of Portugal just waiting for someone like Mary to come along.

Lastly, as Henry VIII reaches adulthood, would he try to get more involved in the governance of the realm or would he simply wait until Henry VII croaks it?

Henry VIII seemed to go through phases of interest in government. There were stretches of time where his counselors had to practically beg him to make decisions or get involved and stretches of time where he was fully invested. So, honestly, I feel like you could say "Yeah, he'd be super involved" or "Nah, he's just hunt all the time" and it would be hard to argue against either answer.

 

[Claudius]

With no European wars, I could see earlier and more intensive English exploration of the New World. of course eventually this will lead to potential conflict with Spain. and/or France in the 1500's.

 

[RedKing]

It's hard to imagine Henry VII allowing himself to get sucked into the Italian Wars. He did not share his son's medieval interest in winning glory via feats of arms and seemed to recognize that the era of English supremacy at war had passed with the technological advancements of the late 15th and early 16th centuries. On top of that, war was expensive and Henry was committed to the financial security of the realm. Most importantly, though, I think Henry would have seen war as threatening the legitimacy of his new dynasty -- i.e., if he joined one and lost then he'd basically have achieved a reverse-Agincourt, discrediting himself and his line.

That is true, a bad English campaign would be bad for the Tudors, I doubt it would actually cause them to fall from power at this point, but Henry VII would still fear that it would happen. Plus, he could probably wrangle some money out of France by threatening to join the war if he doesn’t get x trade deal or y amount in tribute.

Honestly? I think he'd be totally fine with it As I say above, I think Henry's priority will be avoiding foreign entanglement and so if Charles says he wants a different wife, then Henry would accept that if it kept him out of war. Besides, right next door to Spain there's the unmarried crown prince of Portugal just waiting for someone like Mary to come along.

Hmm, not sure if I’d agree he’s avoid non-violent diplomatic entanglements. He had no problem fighting with Ferdinand II over Catherine’s dowry in otl. Charles is the biggest catch on the European market, no way he’s going to let that slip from his daughter’s hands. Portugal is a good back up if the marriage does fall through though.

Henry VIII seemed to go through phases of interest in government. There were stretches of time where his counselors had to practically beg him to make decisions or get involved and stretches of time where he was fully invested. So, honestly, I feel like you could say "Yeah, he'd be super involved" or "Nah, he's just hunt all the time" and it would be hard to argue against either answer.

This is true. I could easily seen him letting his councillors take the reigns for a while if he’s tried after his father’s years of tutoring and getting him to govern the north (because there’s no way Henry would let him not govern). He’d probably still flip flop between the two like otl in alt.

With no European wars, I could see earlier and more intensive English exploration of the New World. of course eventually this will lead to potential conflict with Spain. and/or France in the 1500's.

This would be very interesting. Especially since strictly speaking Portugal is divided between Spain and Portugal exclusively. Then again, the Spanish would rather the English have lands in the America’s than the French.

 

[Tudorfan]

Well, Anne Boleyn wouldn't be on the scene if Henry VII died in 1523 - Henry VII would want "the Irish problem" resolved as much as he could concerning the Ormond inheritance, so she's off there whether she likes it or not.

As for COA - I doubt she'd go back to Spain. Ferdinand would keep her in England as his Ambassador; she's cheap and doesn't need paying - as far as he's concerned, she's Henry VII's problem now. It would only be after 1516, when Ferdinand has shuffled off his mortal coil, that Charles and Henry VII can decide what to do with her.

As for Mary, well, she's going to Spain - that marriage was only broken off because Henry VII died and Henry VIII chose differently; she can do to Spain c. 1512/4 here - aged16/8 and Charles could have a son c. 1519/1520.

Henry VIII gets Eleanor of Austria as planned, probably c.1514/1516 when she's 16 or 18.

 

[mickeymouse]

Speaking of which, what happens to Catherine of Aragon? Is she eventually allowed to return home, I'd imagine she would be.

Katherine wrote to Ferdinand a month before Henry VII’s death begging for him to let her return to Spain so that she could join a convent, but whether Ferdinand would actually agree to this request remains to be seen. I think I’ve read somewhere that Katherine’s bags were in the processed of being packed for a return to Spain at the time of Henry VII’s death, though, so if that’s true then it is possible that he intended to grant her request and let her retire to a religious life.

In terms of other husbands for Katherine, though, either Charles III, the Duke of Savoy (unmarried until 1521) or Emperor Maximilian I (widowed again at the end of 1510) are the most likely options, IMO.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

let her retire to a religious life

When she was still young and able to remarry? Nah. He'd at least keep her as regent. As nun she is not helpful to anyone

 

[RedKing]

Well, Anne Boleyn wouldn't be on the scene if Henry VII died in 1523 - Henry VII would want "the Irish problem" resolved as much as he could concerning the Ormond inheritance, so she's off there whether she likes it or not

That is true. Anne Boleyn being out of the picture would certainly be interesting in the long term. It’d be good for Eleanor anyways.

As for COA - I doubt she'd go back to Spain. Ferdinand would keep her in England as his Ambassador; she's cheap and doesn't need paying - as far as he's concerned, she's Henry VII's problem now. It would only be after 1516, when Ferdinand has shuffled off his mortal coil, that Charles and Henry VII can decide what to do with her.

Hmm, I’m not sure if I agree. By 1512, Catherine will be of little use to Ferdinand since english relations wouldn’t be as important. Henry VII was also fed up of her and wanted her to go home. I’d say that they’d have made plans to send her back to Spain prior to 1516. If not, Charles would probably bring her back so she can serve as Regent in Castile while he’s away.

As for Mary, well, she's going to Spain - that marriage was only broken off because Henry VII died and Henry VIII chose differently; she can do to Spain c. 1512/4 here - aged16/8 and Charles could have a son c. 1519/1520.

There was also Charles wavering over whether or not to marry Mary or a Portuguese infanta, but yeah, Henry VII would ensure that his daughter is the Holy Roman Empress.

Henry VIII gets Eleanor of Austria as planned, probably c.1514/1516 when she's 16 or 18.

I wouldn’t rule out Eleanor marrying Henry VIII in 1512/13 though. In otl, Henry VII wanted Catherine in England at around the same age (and indeed was pushing for her to be sent to England in her youth).

Katherine wrote to Ferdinand a month before Henry VII’s death begging for him to let her return to Spain so that she could join a convent, but whether Ferdinand would actually agree to this request remains to be seen. I think I’ve read somewhere that Katherine’s bags were in the processed of being packed for a return to Spain at the time of Henry VII’s death, though, so if that’s true then it is possible that he intended to grant her request and let her retire to a religious life.

That is interesting. Catherine definitely was asking to go home by 1509. Henry VIi could very well let her too. Though, I’m not sure if he’d let her go to a convent. She could be made Regent for Joanna in Castile, so that Ferdinand has some say there or be married off for an alliance.

terms of other husbands for Katherine, though, either Charles III, the Duke of Savoy (unmarried until 1521) or Emperor Maximilian I (widowed again at the end of 1510) are the most likely options, IMO.

When she was still young and able to remarry? Nah. He'd at least keep her as regent. As nun she is not helpful to anyone

Louis XII is also a candidate if Anne of Brittany dies earlier. I also doubt Ferdinand would let Catherine go to a convent, she could be put to better use than that.

 

[Tudorfan]

Hmm, I’m not sure if I agree. By 1512, Catherine will be of little use to Ferdinand since english relations wouldn’t be as important. Henry VII was also fed up of her and wanted her to go home. I’d say that they’d have made plans to send her back to Spain prior to 1516. If not, Charles would probably bring her back so she can serve as Regent in Castile while he’s away.

Oh, they're unimportant, but it keeps Catherine dealt with - she's cheap, Henry VII can feed and cloth her, and Ferdinand doesn't have to bother with her then.