What were German plans for poland if they won WW1
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They intended to annex a portion of its north and west and then puppetize what remained of it, I recall reading that Poles from the annexed areas would be expelled, and the area would be colonized by ethnic Germans, much like what would be later attempted in WW2.
I sadly do not have a good map for this but the "Septemberprogramm" search brings some up.
I sadly do not have a good map for this but the "Septemberprogramm" search brings some up.
Forgot to say that this map is also incorrect because it features the standard trope of A-H annexing Venice, which they never intended to do.They intended to annex a portion of its north and west and then puppetize what remained of it, I recall reading that Poles from the annexed areas would be expelled, and the area would be colonized by ethnic Germans, much like what would be later attempted in WW2.
I sadly do not have a good map for this but the "Septemberprogramm" search brings some up.
Riain
Banned
Late in the war there was argument about how much Polish territory to actually annex. Hindy and Ludy wanted to annex a big strip of some 30,000km2 and expel some 3 million people, in contrast others particularly Max Hoffmann with the support of the Kaiser only wanted to annex very small parts of Poland to keep a couple of key railway towns needed for mobilisation such as Torn out of artillery range. The Kaiser, knowing what H&L wanted pressed Hoffmann for his opinion on the Polish border and had to order Hoffmann to give his opinion, which the Kaiser agreed with, but when the Kaiser told Ludy he went ballistic and tried to demote Hoffman and told the Kaiser that he had no say in the matter.
Personally I think once the war ended Hindy and Ludy would be removed from political power the minimum annexation would be the one that would get up, while the rest of Poland would be incorporated into the MittelEuropa scheme.
Coulsdon Eagle
Monthly Donor
German plans shifted during the war. At one stage they considered a puppet Polish state under a Habsburg prince. By the end they were happy to have a Polish buffer state but annexing a border strip to provide greater security for East Prussia & Silesia.
OTOH Ludendorff and Ober Ost betokens a much darker future for the Poles.
Suggest read Alex Watson's Ring of Steel which covers this and a lot more of the Central Powers.
OTOH Ludendorff and Ober Ost betokens a much darker future for the Poles.
Suggest read Alex Watson's Ring of Steel which covers this and a lot more of the Central Powers.
They might have had a lot of trouble finding Germans willing to go there. In that era population movement was overwhelmingly the other way, with people leaving East Prussian farms for better-paid work in the Ruhr etc.
Indeed in the years leading up to WW1, a "Colonisation Commission" in the business of buying up land from Poles to settle ethnic Germans on it, was rather embarrassed to get more ethnic *Germans* selling out to them than were ethnic Poles.
And given how Ludendorff in particular had sometime spoken to the Kaiser, I can well envisage him going the way of Bismarck, once the war ended and Willy no longer needed him.
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Congress Poland would become a German client state. There would also be *some* modifications of the German border with Congress Poland--anything from Ludendorff's "Polish border strip" to Hoffmann's proposal of modest border changes "to improve the defences of Thorn, Soldau, and the Upper Silesian coal mines." https://books.google.com/books?id=J2spDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA63 The Kaiser immediately approved of Hoffmann's proposal.
As Hoffmann wrote, "I was an enemy of any settlement of the Polish question which would increase in Germany the number of subjects of Polish nationality. Notwithstanding the measures that Prussia had taken during many decades, we had not been able to manage the Poles we have, and I could not see the advantage of any addition to the number of citizens of that nationality. " https://books.google.com/books?id=n8-mDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT272
In general, in 1917 the idea of a border strip from which all Poles and Jews would be driven and Germans resettled seems to have fallen into disfavor, or at least the extent of the strip was pared down. https://books.google.com/books?id=MATeDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT31 But with the improvement of the situation on the Eastern Front in 1918, ambitious resettlement and expropriation plans may again have become thinkable.
As Hoffmann wrote, "I was an enemy of any settlement of the Polish question which would increase in Germany the number of subjects of Polish nationality. Notwithstanding the measures that Prussia had taken during many decades, we had not been able to manage the Poles we have, and I could not see the advantage of any addition to the number of citizens of that nationality. " https://books.google.com/books?id=n8-mDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT272
In general, in 1917 the idea of a border strip from which all Poles and Jews would be driven and Germans resettled seems to have fallen into disfavor, or at least the extent of the strip was pared down. https://books.google.com/books?id=MATeDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT31 But with the improvement of the situation on the Eastern Front in 1918, ambitious resettlement and expropriation plans may again have become thinkable.
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If any maps of the various proposals for the "Polish Border Strip" or smaller concessions actually exist, I've never been able to find one, at least not one in any detail.... I'd be interested in this as well....
As with much of the CP occupation of the East, I think they were "winging it" .... Taking a very much ad hoc approach until the smoke settles and the dust clears....
I agree on this... the duumvirate would not survive much past the end of the war.
Hindy, due to his immense personal popularity with the German people, would likely be kept around, as sort of the "grand old man" of the General Staff... Ludy, OTOH, had this amazing ability to piss off and irritate both his superiors and subordinates... and as his personal and religious views veered further toward bat-shittery, he would've been seen as more of a liability than an asset, and shuffled off into early retirement accordingly....
Hoffman was most likely the smartest, or at least the most realistic, guy in the room at the time... would be the best for the Germans (and probably the Poles as well) for der Kaiser to pay attention to him, though as Wilhelm didn't always seek out the best counsel, there's no guarantee....
Riain
Banned
This was pretty much the entire approach to war aims, getting big eyeballs when things were going well and shrinking back when things weren't. Its likely a symptom of the poor German performance at the political-strategic level of warfare.
Riain
Banned
Yes, these were the books I was recalling.
It'd be pretty easy to rig up if you can do maps, jjust get the 1914 borders and draw a 15-km circle around Thorn. Soldau and the Upper Silesian coalmines to attach them to Germany.
Germany had no plans for after ww1, that was the issue, had all these plans for a war, no idea what they actually wanted to get out of said war. There were plenty of proposals sure but nobody had made any firm disition on what was actually going to happen.
Frankly Germany broke Clausewitzs first rule, that war is a continuation of politics, Germany basically put politics on hold once the war stated and decided it would figure it all out after it had won. Admittedly the allies weren't much better but at lest they had in idea of what they wanted out of the war wich is much more then could be said of Germany.
So what would happen with poland would depend highly on what government is in charge of Germany when it wins ww1, it could go from gust turning congress poland into a allied state, to ethnicly clesning half the country and littery everything in between. Personally the most like outcome from the most likely government to have lead Germany to victory would probably gust do some border redistribution to protect mobilization routes and turning poland into a puppt state.
Frankly Germany broke Clausewitzs first rule, that war is a continuation of politics, Germany basically put politics on hold once the war stated and decided it would figure it all out after it had won. Admittedly the allies weren't much better but at lest they had in idea of what they wanted out of the war wich is much more then could be said of Germany.
So what would happen with poland would depend highly on what government is in charge of Germany when it wins ww1, it could go from gust turning congress poland into a allied state, to ethnicly clesning half the country and littery everything in between. Personally the most like outcome from the most likely government to have lead Germany to victory would probably gust do some border redistribution to protect mobilization routes and turning poland into a puppt state.
You mean something like this?
The purpose of these annexations is to better defend those strategic places. But is that still relevant if the whole of Poland becomes part of 'Mitteleuropa', i.e. forms a buffer state against Russia?
Riain
Banned
Nice, interesting to see how small the adjustments are. I'm guessing they'd be pretty easy to sell politically to both Poles and war weary Germans.
As for annexation, it lasts forever in theory but how long does the average political abd/or military treaty/agreement last? IIUC what to do about Poland was contentious right through the war, as was what to do about all of Eastern Europe and Mitteleuropa wasn't all beer and skittles either. I'd imagine that the long-term thinkers could imagine in decades to come Poland might shake itself free of the constraints put in place in 1918 and those bits of territory could be very useful.
The tricky part is that would the Poles of Austria want to join an independent Poland (no one wanted to join a Russian occupied Poland pre war). Seems unsatisfying.
Is it unreasonable that a German victory which Czarist Russia is still around would just leave the borders as they were pre war, i.e. Congress of Vienna, to avoid turning Russia into a permanent enemy? (it was silly of German diplomacy to turn them into an enemy pre war)
(while recognizing Austria/German predominance in the Balkans/Turkey) while encouraging the Russians to go go east against Japan.
Germany trying to secure Belgian Congo or Briery Basin or Angola (if after Portugal is in), vs gains in Russia.
(I am presuming any German victory is going to have to be very much a compromise victory, otherwise Britain won't make peace)
Is it unreasonable that a German victory which Czarist Russia is still around would just leave the borders as they were pre war, i.e. Congress of Vienna, to avoid turning Russia into a permanent enemy? (it was silly of German diplomacy to turn them into an enemy pre war)
(while recognizing Austria/German predominance in the Balkans/Turkey) while encouraging the Russians to go go east against Japan.
Germany trying to secure Belgian Congo or Briery Basin or Angola (if after Portugal is in), vs gains in Russia.
(I am presuming any German victory is going to have to be very much a compromise victory, otherwise Britain won't make peace)
it was called Regentschaftskönigreich Polen in german language
after War it should become Kingdom with Erzherzog Karl Stephan von Österreich or older son Erzherzog Karl Albrecht von Habsburg-Altenburg, as King.
both lived Poland and spoke polish
more info here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Poland_(1917–1918)
after War it should become Kingdom with Erzherzog Karl Stephan von Österreich or older son Erzherzog Karl Albrecht von Habsburg-Altenburg, as King.
both lived Poland and spoke polish
more info here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Poland_(1917–1918)