What were German plans for poland if they won WW1

[Imperial Advocate]

The Germans sought to establish an independent client kingdom led by a German prince, led by a candidate from the royal houses of Saxony, Wuttermburg, and Bavaria. There were also serious proposals to annex a strip of Polish territory directly into the German Empire, map here.

Austria-Hungary also wanted to annex directly into their empire through the 'Austro-Polish solution' and make the Austrian Emperor the king of Poland, though the Austrians would also support independent candidates to the Polish throne, either Archduke Charles Stephen or Charles Albert.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

This is where things get strage. Pidulski thought that because of the course of the war IOTL, but presumably could think something different if ITTL the course of the war was different enough to get a CP victory.

Austro-Hungarian Poles hoped for Trialist solution: Russian Poland added to Galizia and Austria-Hungary changing into Austro-Hungaro-Poland.

But that was impossible-with Russian Poland added Poles would be most numerous nation of Habsburg Monarchy, more numerous than Hungarians or Germans.

 

[Riain]

The Germans sought to establish an independent client kingdom led by a German prince, led by a candidate from the royal houses of Saxony, Wuttermburg, and Bavaria

Didn't Saxony have a personal Union with a part of Poland at some point in the 1800s?

There were also serious proposals to annex a strip of Polish territory directly into the German Empire, map here.

That's the big strip that Ludy and others wanted, in contrast to the small border adjustments that Hoffman espoused. Ludy wanted to expel the Poles from this strip, he was no more a fan of ruling Poles than Hoffman was.

Austria-Hungary also wanted to annex directly into their empire through the 'Austro-Polish solution' and make the Austrian Emperor the king of Poland, though the Austrians would also support independent candidates to the Polish throne, either Archduke Charles Stephen or Charles Albert.

I'd suggest that what AH wanted would be the least likely thing to happen, they were the junior parter and it was Germany that did the heavy lifting to win the war. I doubt that they'll be shafted but they won't get any prizes they didn't win for themselves.

 

[Riain]

Austro-Hungarian Poles hoped for Trialist solution: Russian Poland added to Galizia and Austria-Hungary changing into Austro-Hungaro-Poland.

But that was impossible-with Russian Poland added Poles would be most numerous nation of Habsburg Monarchy, more numerous than Hungarians or Germans.

Not to mention that AH as the junior parter who regularly had to be bailed out of trouble by Germany won't get the final say. It what Germany sats that matters, both to the Poles themselves and everyone else.

 

[NoMommsen]

Didn't Saxony have a personal Union with a part of Poland at some point in the 1800s?
...

Nope, that was from 1697until 1763 (August the Strong) - with a short interregnum by between 1706 to 1709 by swedish supported Stanilaus I. Leszczynki.

 

[Aghasverov]

Nope, that was from 1697until 1763 (August the Strong) - with a short interregnum by between 1706 to 1709 by swedish supported Stanilaus I. Leszczynki.

Don't forget that Frederick Augustus I was also Napoleon's Duke of Warsaw from 1807 thru 1815

 

[Intosh]

The problem is that much of what people “know” about the CP’s post-war plans is that they are filtered though Entente propaganda. Hence the September-Program went from being one proposal among many, by mostly private individuals, to the inevitable result of any German victory.
The truth is that German leadership didn’t have a coherent plan for what they would do after they won. Rather, it changed depending on the military situation, Germany’s internal political situation at the time, the group making the proposal, and how they were feeling that day.

We exactly knew what were the Germans plans for Europe if the Central Powers win. It was demonstrated by the Brest-Livtosk peace that were more than just plans, it was a reality.

In case of victory, the Central Powers wanted nothing less that destroying completely their ennemies (in OTL, Rumania and Russia and France if possible in ATL) by annexing large parts of territories without any respect of history or ethnic/national sentiment. These territories will be dominated by German Head of State and local german minorities, occupied by the ruthless German Army, exploited to death at the sole benefits of German economy and maintain in a situation of quasi colonies.

Basically Imperial Germany in 1917 in the east, establishef the "Lebensraum" that Nazi Germany was only dreaming in 1942.

Same plans, different methods of administration I hope. But the Imperial German Army was already above ruthless in administration of occupied territories.

 

[Intosh]

Not to mention that AH as the junior parter who regularly had to be bailed out of trouble by Germany won't get the final say. It what Germany sats that matters, both to the Poles themselves and everyone else.

Germany can thanks the Austrian-Hungarian armies to resist to the main Russian offensives in 1914 in Galicia because the offensive against East Prussia was only a secondary operation. It was AH that endure the grunt work to resist to the Russian armies in 1914-1915.

It was also the AH that have to fight the numerous new allies, the Entente created with the additionnal Italian and Rumanian fronts.

Please don't fall to the classic trap of Germanboos that Austria-Hungary was the Italy of WW1.

 

[Hugh Third of Five]

The Germans sought to establish an independent client kingdom led by a German prince, led by a candidate from the royal houses of Saxony, Wuttermburg, and Bavaria.

I think you mean "or" not "and," since those were separate houses.

We exactly knew what were the Germans plans for Europe if the Central Powers win. It was demonstrated by the Brest-Livtosk peace that were more than just plans, it was a reality.

In case of victory, the Central Powers wanted nothing less that destroying completely their ennemies (in OTL, Rumania and Russia and France if possible in ATL) by annexing large parts of territories without any respect of history or ethnic/national sentiment. These territories will be dominated by German Head of State and local german minorities, occupied by the ruthless German Army, exploited to death at the sole benefits of German economy and maintain in a situation of quasi colonies.

Basically Imperial Germany in 1917 in the east, establishef the "Lebensraum" that Nazi Germany was only dreaming in 1942.

Same plans, different methods of administration I hope. But the Imperial German Army was already above ruthless in administration of occupied territories.

The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk did not call for annexation. Imperial Russia lost a lot territory, but it was not to be annexed by Germany.

 

[longtimelurker]

It was demonstrated by the Brest-Livtosk peace that were more than just plans, it was a reality.

Lets actually look a the B-L peace treaty
No war Guilt clause, no Military or Economic limitations, not a square inch of Great Russian territory to be ceded period (Even the conception of All-Russia understood distinctions), no reparations (barring some limited compensation for German property nationalized during the revolution), Germany made no annexations OTL, barring some plans WRT to Poland. And this was after the Belsheviks were caught acting in bad-faith.
B-L and the treaties the Entente foisted on their enemies were in no way comparable, and not in the Entente's favor

 

[Riain]

Germany can thanks the Austrian-Hungarian armies to resist to the main Russian offensives in 1914 in Galicia because the offensive against East Prussia was only a secondary operation. It was AH that endure the grunt work to resist to the Russian armies in 1914-1915.

It was also the AH that have to fight the numerous new allies, the Entente created with the additionnal Italian and Rumanian fronts.

Please don't fall to the classic trap of Germanboos that Austria-Hungary was the Italy of WW1.

AH copped a hiding in 1914 and more or less held the line after that. This is all very valuable stuff, but Army Groups were formed in 1915 in order for Germans to command AH field armies not the other way around. Don't fall into the trap of thinking providing important support gives you the final say in the peace negotiations.

 

[Jürgen]

The Polish strip suffer from a few obvious factors. Depopulating 30.000 Km2 of 3 million people to give a bunch of junkers some massive estates would have run into sone obvious political speed bumps. Yes, if the Hindenburg-Ludendorff dictatorship survives maybe it could happen, but that depend on the emperor accepting it, the parties accepting it, and the population who have made large sacrifices accepting it. I predict that H&L will be pretty fast out of power, simply because their dictatorship will be even more unacceptable in a won war than in OTL lost one, I also predict Hindenburg won’t make a lot of noise about it, knowing full well that leaving in dignity will leave him a celebrated historical character, while trying to cling to power will both destroy his legacy, leaving him a political pariah, and ending up scapegoat for everything which goes wrong even in victory.

 

[Mikestone8]

I also predict Hindenburg won’t make a lot of noise about it, knowing full well that leaving in dignity will leave him a celebrated historical character, while trying to cling to power will both destroy his legacy, leaving him a political pariah, and ending up scapegoat for everything which goes wrong even in victory.

He ditched Ludendorff fast enough in October 1918.

Indeed he had something of a reputation that way. Sir John Wheeler Bennett records the following comment by a German officer in 1933/4

"Ludendorff made him a hero and he betrayed Ludendorff. The Kaiser made him a Field Marshall and he betrayed the Kaiser. The Right made him President and he betrayed the Right. The left re-elected him and now he's betrayed the left. If I were Hitler, I'd arrange an accident before he has the chance to betray me."