Nebuchadnezzar
Banned
Basically what it says on the tin, with a POD in the summer of 1943, how long could Nazi Germany survive?
1990's I figure (edit: in terms of 'survive'; not in terms of avoiding military defeat), based on how long Stalin and his successors' version of a communist Russia lasted.Basically what it says on the tin, with a POD in the summer of 1943, how long could Nazi Germany survive?
I think by 1943, the Nazi regime was pretty much over.1990's I figure (edit: in terms of 'survive'; not in terms of avoiding military defeat), based on how long Stalin and his successors' version of a communist Russia lasted.
That presupposes Hitler gets couped/assassinated, along with half a dozen key advisors as early in 1943 as the point of departure permits, and the replacements negotiate a rapid peace (possibly on the basis of assistance fighting the Imperial Japanese) which allows a nominally 'Nazi' regime to remain in charge in Germany.
Might need a bit of Alien Space Bat assistance though, and I don't know that occupation zones can be avoided.
August 1945.Basically what it says on the tin, with a POD in the summer of 1943, how long could Nazi Germany survive?
Any links to those optimistic stories?I think by 1943, the Nazi regime was pretty much over.
I've seen, what I'll best describe as 'optimistic', timelines on here with 1943 PODs which have Hitler replaced by Goering and then the Allies guzzle lead-paint and start a shooting war with themselves. I don't consider this sort of...... story..... plausible at all.
A Prussian Junta of sorts, *might* be able to pull something out the hat if they immediately coup the Nazis in 1943, and replace the whole regime with a stated aim of cleaning house and making peace. But the chances of this are pretty much nil and doing so defeats the original requirement of a Nazi German state surviving.
In all honesty, a Nazi Germany can survive to the Autumn of 1945, say early September. Either one of two scenarios:
1. They do a lot better militarily from 1943 onwards. Kursk doesn't happen (or is a bluff) and they are able to significantly stall the Soviets in the East and Western Allies in Italy and France. By August 1945, Germany is holding on still, probably on the Rhine (or West Wall, even better) in the West, and maybe somewhere between Berlin and Warsaw in the East. Autumn and the colder weather is coming and the Germans are digging in for the long fight, and Allied casualty estimates are still horrific with an estimated end to the war by conventional means no sooner than May 1946.
Truman reads the above, thinks sod it, and nuclear fire erupts over at least two German cities, with the threat of more (whether real or not, it seems real). Germany spends just long enough shooting any Nazis who managed to escape the nuking of Berlin before surrendering on 15th September 1945.
2. Germany does better, but not that much better. By August 1945, the situation is pretty much OTL March 1945. Truman therefore doesn't bother nuking, but Germany collapses one month later with the Soviets taking Berlin on 15th September 1945.
Post WW2, the Western Allies were more than happy enough to work with some leading Nazi figures, such as rocket scientists, and to let others such as Albert Speer rehabilitate themselves. (Although Speer did have to serve some time in prison first.)I think by 1943, the Nazi regime was pretty much over.
I've seen, what I'll best describe as 'optimistic', timelines on here with 1943 PODs which have Hitler replaced by Goering and then the Allies guzzle lead-paint and start a shooting war with themselves. I don't consider this sort of...... story..... plausible at all.
A Prussian Junta of sorts, *might* be able to pull something out the hat if they immediately coup the Nazis in 1943, and replace the whole regime with a stated aim of cleaning house and making peace. But the chances of this are pretty much nil and doing so defeats the original requirement of a Nazi German state surviving.
In all honesty, a Nazi Germany can survive to the Autumn of 1945, say early September. Either one of two scenarios:
1. They do a lot better militarily from 1943 onwards. Kursk doesn't happen (or is a bluff) and they are able to significantly stall the Soviets in the East and Western Allies in Italy and France. By August 1945, Germany is holding on still, probably on the Rhine (or West Wall, even better) in the West, and maybe somewhere between Berlin and Warsaw in the East. Autumn and the colder weather is coming and the Germans are digging in for the long fight, and Allied casualty estimates are still horrific with an estimated end to the war by conventional means no sooner than May 1946.
Truman reads the above, thinks sod it, and nuclear fire erupts over at least two German cities, with the threat of more (whether real or not, it seems real). Germany spends just long enough shooting any Nazis who managed to escape the nuking of Berlin before surrendering on 15th September 1945.
2. Germany does better, but not that much better. By August 1945, the situation is pretty much OTL March 1945. Truman therefore doesn't bother nuking, but Germany collapses one month later with the Soviets taking Berlin on 15th September 1945.
A retreat from Soviet territory would mean both surrendering captured resources to the enemy, losses they can't afford in manpower and morale, and giving an enemy that, if not already at parity, will be at parity all the more faster now that they've recovered a great deal more of their core territory.What if the Nazis/Romania and other allies withdraw to their 1941 or close to it in a fortified line on the Eastern front to cut down on the territory that the Need to hold and logistics meaning less troops shortages
Fighting retreats are very difficult to pull off when your army is mainly infantry formations with few trucks and horse drawn supply vehicles. Walking away from Red Army Tank and Mechanised corps or even its Cavalry units is likely to become a rout pdq. There's only so many armoured formations that can try to shield them from pursuit.If Hitler had allowed his generals to fight a retreating delaying action with preservation of men and material he could have bled the Soviet Union white and had enough strength to do the same in France. This would delay things no more then 6 to 12 months before fuel caused complete loss of combat ability. Stalingrad should have been a fighting retreat instead it was a complete rout with huge casualties. The lack of strategic direction initially was also a problem. The main objective for the Germans should have been the rail lines behind Moscow. Leningrad was irrelevant, Stalingrad was worthwhile if only to secure the Oil fields. Even Sevastopol could have been bypassed and dealt with later.
Another point most forget is the SS and Wehrmacht (not as many but it happened) anti-partisan actions created more partisans in places that originally welcomed them as liberators.
But if Hitler ordered guerilla warfare to be used, I would see this war taking in up to early 1950s in best case scenario and be the most devastated country on ww2Germany would end up in a downright Paraguayan situation by the end of hostilities if they insisted on holding the line against the Western Allies at the Rhine and continued to fight till the end of 1945.
Basically what it says on the tin, with a POD in the summer of 1943, how long could Nazi Germany survive?