The Revenge of the Crown : An Alternate 1812 and Beyond.

[Glory2Cabinda]

Aha! Thanks. I probably got carried away and no way could I write a TL as good as this.

Northstar

I mean I would try Italian Mexican fusion why not.

 

[Lusitania]

The risk I think with filling up California, Texas and norther territories with majority European emigrants even if they are Catholic is that in time they become disconnected and alienated from the people and government in the south. If the object is to protect these places from English settlers and keep them as part of Mexico then there has to be a large Mexican population too.

 

[Glory2Cabinda]

I think that Sārthākā has already said that there is cooperation between Great Britain and the Mexican Empire ITTL. Or at least I'm fairly certain I read that in a previous chapter. Regardless, the Mexican Empire would almost certainly win a war against Great Britain in California ITTL; how are the British going to get troops there? Will they march them across the entire length of Canada or sail them around South America and up past thousands of kilometres of Mexican coastline? Or will they launch an invasion of Veracruz, march on Mexico City, and then head to California?

On the other hand Mexico, especially if they build railroads as I imagine they would ITTL, 'only' have to get their troops from the heartland to California. In fact, without a big ol' expansionist USA to their north-east, Mexico might already have troops stationed in California as they won't have to commit as many troops to Texas and the north-east border ITTL.

Another question to ask is; what's Russia doing in Fort Ross and Alaska? Will the British also take Alaska? Why are the British so interested in this corner of north-west North America ITTL? IOTL, I'm pretty sure it was mainly trading companies like the Hudson Bay Company that were interested in the area. Yes, the British government might've been involved with drawing up borders, but I don't see why that process would be so much more violent ITTL than IOTL.

Northstar

agreed the British would get the Northwest but no way they take California.

 

[Northstar]

Chapter 10: The Treaty of Ghent and Aftermath.

View attachment 587089
Yellow - New Spain, Blue - USA, Pink - BNA, Green - New England, Orange - Mishigama please forgive my horrible mapping skills. ​

A French Louisiana would in all likelihood only be able to keep the land upto say north of St. Louis. The rest north of that would in all likelihood be divided between northern US and BNA.

Theoretically the north could reach the pacific but I think it more likely the pacific be outside its jurisdiction or ability to project power.

Bolding mine.

If you're talking about the northern US states that are the secessionist states ITTL, then I have to disagree that they could have made it to the Pacific.

Look at the map.

To reach the Pacific, a northern US state would have to head west until it after Mishigama, then head north, then keep going west between Canada and the Mexican Empire for thousands of miles until it reached the Pacific coast. Why would it do that? What strategic purpose would that serve? It would end up with a country that was snaking across the North American continent in an absolutely ridiculous fashion, like something out of an EU4 challenge!

Plus, it's like we all keep forgetting Mishigama! Are they not going to try for a bit of extra land to their south or west? 🤔

Northstar

 

[Lusitania]

Bolding mine.

If you're talking about the northern US states that are the secessionist states ITTL, then I have to disagree that they could have made it to the Pacific.

Look at the map.

To reach the Pacific, a northern US state would have to head west until it after Mishigama, then head north, then keep going west between Canada and the Mexican Empire for thousands of miles until it reached the Pacific coast. Why would it do that? What strategic purpose would that serve? It would end up with a country that was snaking across the North American continent in an absolutely ridiculous fashion, like something out of an EU4 challenge!

Plus, it's like we all keep forgetting Mishigama! Are they not going to try for a bit of extra land to their south or west? 🤔

Northstar

I was thinking that places like Ohio and Illinois join the northern rebelling states.

As for natives we could see them get Wisconsin. Which gives them extra lands. The dakotas and Minnesota could and I think be part of BNA.

But we leave it to author yo tell us.

 

[Analytical Engine]

Bolding mine.

If you're talking about the northern US states that are the secessionist states ITTL, then I have to disagree that they could have made it to the Pacific.

Look at the map.

To reach the Pacific, a northern US state would have to head west until it after Mishigama, then head north, then keep going west between Canada and the Mexican Empire for thousands of miles until it reached the Pacific coast. Why would it do that? What strategic purpose would that serve? It would end up with a country that was snaking across the North American continent in an absolutely ridiculous fashion, like something out of an EU4 challenge!

Plus, it's like we all keep forgetting Mishigama! Are they not going to try for a bit of extra land to their south or west? 🤔

Northstar

There is also the question of whether Mishigama even lasts long enough to matter.

I was thinking that places like Ohio and Illinois join the northern rebelling states.

As for natives we could see them get Wisconsin. Which gives them extra lands. The dakotas and Minnesota could and I think be part of BNA.

But we leave it to author yo tell us.

Mishigama already holds Wisconsin.

At the very least, it's a good place for any displaced natives to migrate into. Provided that Mishigama is able (and willing) to absorb them effectively.

 

[Northstar]

The risk I think with filling up California, Texas and norther territories with majority European emigrants even if they are Catholic is that in time they become disconnected and alienated from the people and government in the south. If the object is to protect these places from English settlers and keep them as part of Mexico then there has to be a large Mexican population too.

I think you have to view TTL's Mexico as OTL's USA to a degree. What I mean by that is that the Americans that settled California and Texas were what, second and third generation Americans? And California and Texas remain American to this day.

You have to imagine the processes that happened IOTL's USA repeating ITTL's Mexico. That is to say, Irish, Italian, German, migrants landing in Veracruz and settling in the port city or Mexico City will have children. Their children will most likely be the ones that then move onwards to California. Those children ITTL are Mexicans, born in Mexico and most likely speaking Spanish. They'll be just as Mexican as the Americans of OTL were American. IMO, they'd be happy to make their fortunes, sending some wealth back to their parents in Mexico City and Veracruz and being able to enjoy the protection of a powerful Mexican Empire. Why would they want to start wars of independence? Look at how that worked out for the Americans who've now been warring for 50 years?

We cannot view TTL through the prism of our OTL!

And you're exactly correct; we have to leave it to the author to tell us! But, like any good series, it's great to speculate on what comes next!

Northstar

 

[Lusitania]

There is also the question of whether Mishigama even lasts long enough to matter.


Mishigama already holds Wisconsin.

At the very least, it's a good place for any displaced natives to migrate into. Provided that Mishigama is able (and willing) to absorb them effectively.

That is the million dollar question. The available land will soon disappear and ability of the natives to support themselves hunting and gathering will be impacted. If they are unable to convert to a western way if living agriculture, trade and manufacturing otherwise I think it will collapse.

 

[Derek Pullem]

I think that Sārthākā has already said that there is cooperation between Great Britain and the Mexican Empire ITTL. Or at least I'm fairly certain I read that in a previous chapter. Regardless, the Mexican Empire would almost certainly win a war against Great Britain in California ITTL; how are the British going to get troops there? Will they march them across the entire length of Canada or sail them around South America and up past thousands of kilometres of Mexican coastline? Or will they launch an invasion of Veracruz, march on Mexico City, and then head to California?

On the other hand Mexico, especially if they build railroads as I imagine they would ITTL, 'only' have to get their troops from the heartland to California. In fact, without a big ol' expansionist USA to their north-east, Mexico might already have troops stationed in California as they won't have to commit as many troops to Texas and the north-east border ITTL.

Another question to ask is; what's Russia doing in Fort Ross and Alaska? Will the British also take Alaska? Why are the British so interested in this corner of north-west North America ITTL? IOTL, I'm pretty sure it was mainly trading companies like the Hudson Bay Company that were interested in the area. Yes, the British government might've been involved with drawing up borders, but I don't see why that process would be so much more violent ITTL than IOTL.

Northstar

British are heading for Japan - so they will probably have a Hong Kong analogue in Japan as a base. Britain deployed 20,000 troops to China in 1840, the majority from the British Isles, I doubt they will have much trouble reaching California. After all they reached the Philippines in the Seven Years War with 10,000 men as well.

There just needs to be a convincing reason to do it. Prime farmland and gold helps.

I suspect that the British will build the Canadian Pacific before Mexico builds a line from Central Mexico to California

Britain also maintained a Pacific Squadron of the RN on the west coast of South America from 1813 IOTL - I see no reason why they would not continue ITTL

 

[Lusitania]

I think you have to view TTL's Mexico as OTL's USA to a degree. What I mean by that is that the Americans that settled California and Texas were what, second and third generation Americans? And California and Texas remain American to this day.

You have to imagine the processes that happened IOTL's USA repeating ITTL's Mexico. That is to say, Irish, Italian, German, migrants landing in Veracruz and settling in the port city or Mexico City will have children. Their children will most likely be the ones that then move onwards to California. Those children ITTL are Mexicans, born in Mexico and most likely speaking Spanish. They'll be just as Mexican as the Americans of OTL were American. IMO, they'd be happy to make their fortunes, sending some wealth back to their parents in Mexico City and Veracruz and being able to enjoy the protection of a powerful Mexican Empire. Why would they want to start wars of independence? Look at how that worked out for the Americans who've now been warring for 50 years?

We cannot view TTL through the prism of our OTL!

And you're exactly correct; we have to leave it to the author to tell us! But, like any good series, it's great to speculate on what comes next!

Northstar

Yes you right about children of migrants being more or 1/2 Mexican. I was speculating on sending European settlers directly to those places during the 1820-1850 period

 

[Derek Pullem]

I think you have to view TTL's Mexico as OTL's USA to a degree. What I mean by that is that the Americans that settled California and Texas were what, second and third generation Americans? And California and Texas remain American to this day.

You have to imagine the processes that happened IOTL's USA repeating ITTL's Mexico. That is to say, Irish, Italian, German, migrants landing in Veracruz and settling in the port city or Mexico City will have children. Their children will most likely be the ones that then move onwards to California. Those children ITTL are Mexicans, born in Mexico and most likely speaking Spanish. They'll be just as Mexican as the Americans of OTL were American. IMO, they'd be happy to make their fortunes, sending some wealth back to their parents in Mexico City and Veracruz and being able to enjoy the protection of a powerful Mexican Empire. Why would they want to start wars of independence? Look at how that worked out for the Americans who've now been warring for 50 years?

We cannot view TTL through the prism of our OTL!

And you're exactly correct; we have to leave it to the author to tell us! But, like any good series, it's great to speculate on what comes next!

Northstar

Good example are the Welsh immigrants to Argentina IOTL - Welsh speaking immigrants to a Spanish sate doesn't appear obvious but it happened.

 

[Northstar]

British are heading for Japan - so they will probably have a Hong Kong analogue in Japan as a base. Britain deployed 20,000 troops to China in 1840, the majority from the British Isles, I doubt they will have much trouble reaching California. After all they reached the Philippines in the Seven Years War with 10,000 men as well.

There just needs to be a convincing reason to do it. Prime farmland and gold helps.

I suspect that the British will build the Canadian Pacific before Mexico builds a line from Central Mexico to California

Britain also maintained a Pacific Squadron of the RN on the west coast of South America from 1813 IOTL - I see no reason why they would not continue ITTL

I'm not sure using a base over 5,300 miles away is practicable...

Yes, there was a RN squadron there, but the question is whether it can realistically stand up to the Mexican Empire ITTL. And even if they did sail 20,000 men there, they would be outnumbered at least two or three times by the Mexicans. Plus, as you've said, the British ITTL have their hands full in Japan. The British are more likely to use the farmland in the northern Louisiana territory that it sounds like they're going to get rather than invade their new Mexican friends.

But I mean, maybe, Sārthākā will tell us...

Northstar

 

[Lusitania]

Yes correct and given time they become part of the country. I have met many 2nd and 3rd generation european emigrants to Brazil and Argentina who have emigrated to Canada now. They like emigrants here agave links to both their countries of origins.

I think that being separated from other English speaking countries helps them integrate more along with a large Spanish base.

 

[Northstar]

Yes correct and given time they become part of the country. I have met many 2nd and 3rd generation european emigrants to Brazil and Argentina who have emigrated to Canada now. They like emigrants here agave links to both their countries of origins.

I think that being separated from other English speaking countries helps them integrate more along with a large Spanish base.

Yep, and the more similar the cultures, the easier integration is. In this time period, religion is a massive part of culture. Sure you might get a church that caters to Irish Catholics and then a different church down the street that caters to Spanish Catholics, but they'll both be practically the same. This is in contrast to say an Anglican church in the USA next to a Protestant German church or Southern Baptist church or an Irish Catholic church. It sounds odd to us, but I think the Irish catholics would find it much easier to integrate into Mexican culture than English culture in some regards. Especially if the upper classes share the same churches that give their sermons in Latin, as that could foster some political allegiances.

Northstar

 

[Northstar]

Good example are the Welsh immigrants to Argentina IOTL - Welsh speaking immigrants to a Spanish sate doesn't appear obvious but it happened.

Yes! Great example.

Maybe Argentina would be a good alternative place for the British to look for some prime farmland? 😉

Northstar

 

[Lusitania]

Yep, and the more similar the cultures, the easier integration is. In this time period, religion is a massive part of culture. Sure you might get a church that caters to Irish Catholics and then down the street that caters to Spanish Catholics, but they'll both be practically the same. This is in contrast to say an Anglican church in the USA next to a Protestant German church or Southern Baptist church or an Irish Catholic church. It sounds odd to us, but I think the Irish catholics would find it much easier to integrate into Mexican culture than English culture in some regards. Especially if the upper classes share the same churches that give their sermons in Latin, as that could foster some political allegiances.

Northstar

I understand your point and there would be some similarities but as I have recently posted in my own TL where Irish migrated to Portugal starting in the late 18th century you will have a long period of living side by side for their religious practices are different.

So there might not be the level of animosity as with Irish in a Protestant country. (Such as the level of attacks snd discrimination Irish witness in both US and Canada) there still be differences and the larger the population of emigrants the more difficult it is to integrate.

 

[Glory2Cabinda]

this is a logistical nightmare

 

[Lusitania]

this is a logistical nightmare

Which is logistical nightmare?

 

[Glory2Cabinda]

Which is logistical nightmare?

The British invading Cali from a base in Japan.

 

[Lusitania]

The British invading Cali from a base in Japan.

Agree