Let Them Pass

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Geon

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Sārthākā said:
somewhat embarassingly for Germany, A-H was the only country in the CP before ww1 which had a prototype tank in design along with the British, French and Russians. The war put that project into hold, and never came into fruition otl. Without tanks being used in this war, it will be the pre-war engineers of British, Russian, French and Austro-Hungarian firms which will be leading the tank development and not Germany ittl. Germany before 1916 otl did not give the theory of a tank much credence, and only gave it thought after its effects used by the British were seen. Don't let otl 1930s cloud your views on military development. With the pre-war situation mostly intact in terms of designs, it will be Britain, France, Russia and austria-Hungary leading the tank development in this theoretical interwar era.
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One thing I need to mention. Remember in our TL the name "tank" caught on because the British used that word to mis-identify the crates the vehicles were delivered in. The word "tank" won't be used here. Rather the name MAFV will be the tern used for these vehicles (Mobile Armored Fighting Vehicles).
 
Sarthak

Sarthak

I would like to point out that even until 1917 the slavic.population of AH was loyal and Even in 1918, the Slovenes, croats, Bosnians were loyal. In 1914/15 with a war and rally around the flange effect the chances of a Slavic uprising is next to nil. If otl metric until 1917 are usable.
 
Monitor

Monitor

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Sārthākā said:
I would like to point out that even until 1917 the slavic.population of AH was loyal and Even in 1918, the Slovenes, croats, Bosnians were loyal. In 1914/15 with a war and rally around the flange effect the chances of a Slavic uprising is next to nil. If otl metric until 1917 are usable.
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Also, the Slavic populations hated the other Slavic populations. Especially the Hungarians... So either, you do not have support of Hungary, or you have no support from the rest (or very little support from the rest). Reason is historic, and boils down to: Hungary does not want to loose any power (main reason for A-Hs internal problems), and the others want power from Hungary.

Civil war... Austria Hungary was incredibly stable for what it was (which is not saying that much, admittedly, but). With a short victorious war (which this WW1 was), the issues do not get into the limelight. Yes, they need to be solved, yes, they are there, but without the war, everyone expected one had more than a decade at least before something needed to be done. And everyone would be right.

With The short victorious war? They just won a few years (yeah, nationalism!)

That will not be a true civil war (unless the black hand manages to get Hungary on their side (which, reminder, means no one else helps them). Then, that will be a true civil war, which is a certain victory for Austria, and solves most of the issues in one action... Thanks Black Hand for strengthening A-H...

EDIT: Also, that guy is forgetting about Germany, who will come down on them like a ton of bricks, and if there is the slightest evidence (just rumors are enough) that the same group that is behind Franz Ferdinand is behind that mess, well good bye Serbia, and Russia will actually help. Let’s not forget about that.
 

Geon

Donor
I agree with both of you @Sārthākā and @Monitor . But just a decade before World War I Serbia and other slavic nations united to kick out the Ottoman Empire's influence - then immediately fell to fighting each other! There's no doubt they absolutely hate each other. But my thought is, if they want to be their own independent nations well to use a tired but true cliché, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Spoiler: They'll work together as long as it is convenient constantly guarding their backs from each other's daggers. And then when they have what they want they'll fall on each other like ravenous wolves!
 
MrCharles

MrCharles

Geon said:
One thing I need to mention. Remember in our TL the name "tank" caught on because the British used that word to mis-identify the crates the vehicles were delivered in. The word "tank" won't be used here. Rather the name MAFV will be the tern used for these vehicles (Mobile Armored Fighting Vehicles).
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I could easily see some Tommy, seeing these for the first time, calling them ‘water-tanks on wheels’, and the name catching on.
 
Sarthak

Sarthak

Geon said:
I agree with both of you @Sārthākā and @Monitor . But just a decade before World War I Serbia and other slavic nations united to kick out the Ottoman Empire's influence - then immediately fell to fighting each other! There's no doubt they absolutely hate each other. But my thought is, if they want to be their own independent nations well to use a tired but true cliché, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Spoiler: They'll work together as long as it is convenient constantly guarding their backs from each other's daggers. And then when they have what they want they'll fall on each other like ravenous wolves!
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I think the main point is that most of the Slavic pop would be loyal to the Habsburgs and nowhere near the influence needed for a civil war.
 

ferdi254

Banned
A civil war in AH did not happen in a couple decades it survived Napoleon, the Turks and a lot of other things. It would take a ton of stupid decisions in Vienna to trigger one.

A couple of terrorists would not be enough, far from it. And as others have mentioned the German army would end such a thing in weeks.
 
Monitor

Monitor

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ferdi254 said:
A civil war in AH did not happen in a couple decades it survived Napoleon, the Turks and a lot of other things. It would take a ton of stupid decisions in Vienna to trigger one.

A couple of terrorists would not be enough, far from it. And as others have mentioned the German army would end such a thing in weeks.
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Exactly. The issue here is, that Germany sees the situation as solved. If Serbia is even involved through something as simple as a donation to the wrong person by a decently high up official, privately, Germany has no choice but to come. Because, while Wilhelms Ego makes him a difficult character, it also makes him a character you can anticipate. He does not want war (although he sees the glory, but war against family is something he only reluctantly begins. Competition? Hell, yeah! War? No, if need be yes, but otherwise no. There is a reason why his advisors send him to the sea to start WW1, after he gave his Blanko check and before he could reconsider...). But he is prideful, and sees breaking a treaty he was involved in as high treason. His personality gives him no choice but to act (also, helping his family in Austria...). If there is a single Serbian volunteer in that mess, the most impulsive man in control of a Great power will give marching orders, immediately. They will mass on the border, and as soon AH gives permission, the entire German army will March.

That subplot makes no real sense, for me. If you want to solve the issues AH has with a short civil war, then yes, but no breaking up (loosing some minor territories, maybe, but one would need to think hard about which.)

AH did not break up on its own. Even during WW1 it was stable enough that it might, might have managed to recover, shockingly enough. It was dismantled by multiple great powers. (It would have lost a lot of Prestige, would be incredibly weakened, and it would likely have been forced to give more freedoms, but it could have survived.)
 

ferdi254

Banned
To strengthen the last couple posts. Serbia got out of this mess incredibly well. But if one Serbian sneezes at any Austrian citizen all bounds are off. And anybody complicit in that sneezing will better find a very deep hole to hide in. It will be Serbia against the German and AH army because any such sneezing means they broke the treaty. Even the Serbian government should know that their heads are suddenly no more tightly bound to their rumps if anything like this happens so they have the best possible incentive to crack down really hard on any such groups and no one with more than 10 braincells would work with such a group.
 

Deleted member 94680

ferdi254 said:
To strengthen the last couple posts. Serbia got out of this mess incredibly well. But if one Serbian sneezes at any Austrian citizen all bounds are off.
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Austrians in Serbia are going to be like Europeans in 1900s China ITTL, immune to local laws and able to destroy local's lives with a wave of their hands
 
Athelstane

Athelstane

Geon said:
emember in our TL the name "tank" caught on because the British used that word to mis-identify the crates the vehicles were delivered in.
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It was, indeed, quite a historical accident that got us that name.

One key advantage it *did* have was that it was very simple - monosyllabic. Whatever replaces it here will need to be similarly simple, if it is to stick....
 

Deleted member 94680

Athelstane said:
It was, indeed, quite a historical accident that got us that name.
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I wouldn’t say it was an accident, more an example of military misinformation.
Athelstane said:
One key advantage it *did* have was that it was very simple - monosyllabic. Whatever replaces it here will need to be similarly simple, if it is to stick...
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I have always liked the idea of “panzer” becoming the general, all purpose name for armoured fighting vehicles. Especially in a world where Germany (or a German speaking nation) develops and deploys AFVs first.
 

Kaiko

These armored fighting vehicles were initially developed by the Landship Committee, or the Director of Naval Construction's Committee.

You could go with the original name that these vehicles went by, "Landships", until they were renamed "tanks" for secrecy.
 
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