Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline

Even so, it's comparatively a very large population with divergent interests to try and govern, especially as people get richer and ask for a larger share in governance.

The central focus of the government at the moment is the Berber Hajib given the blessing of rule by the sort-of Andalusi Umayyad Caliph. Andalus has the legitimacy by the unbroken line of Caliphs, the Maghreb has the desire to trade and integrate the two sides of the Asmarid Empire into one whole.

Incidentally, this makes the Maghreb the Spain analogue with it's fundamentalist warriors going to the Americas, but even they have a relatively less impact compared to the conquistadors.

I'm reminded of that Islamic sociopolitical theory about how settled people turned decadent, get ousted by purer nomadic people, only to fall decadent and the cycle repeat and wonder if the theory wouldn't be applied to Western Islam region...
 
The central focus of the government at the moment is the Berber Hajib given the blessing of rule by the sort-of Andalusi Umayyad Caliph. Andalus has the legitimacy by the unbroken line of Caliphs, the Maghreb has the desire to trade and integrate the two sides of the Asmarid Empire into one whole.

Incidentally, this makes the Maghreb the Spain analogue with it's fundamentalist warriors going to the Americas, but even they have a relatively less impact compared to the conquistadors.

I'm reminded of that Islamic sociopolitical theory about how settled people turned decadent, get ousted by purer nomadic people, only to fall decadent and the cycle repeat and wonder if the theory wouldn't be applied to Western Islam region...
There the Rhomanoi who are greco-turkish guy are becoming an Islamic ERE in everything short having a eagle flag
 
There the Rhomanoi who are greco-turkish guy are becoming an Islamic ERE in everything short having a eagle flag

I do find it interesting on how ITTL's history, if ERE is seen as a continuation of Rome and not split off by historians as the Byzantines or something, the historical periods of Rome are Pagan Kingdom, Pagan Republic, Pagan Empire, Christian Empire, and Islamic Empire but it's all culturally Greek/Roman...
 
I do find it interesting on how ITTL's history, if ERE is seen as a continuation of Rome and not split off by historians as the Byzantines or something, the historical periods of Rome are Pagan Kingdom, Pagan Republic, Pagan Empire, Christian Empire, and Islamic Empire but it's all culturally Greek/Roman...
That would be an interesting approach...yet lacking the real city not help much, but if we did count the Hellenes/greeks as a single group, might count, as they hellenized the romans, and them the turks.ummm
 
That would be an interesting approach...yet lacking the real city not help much, but if we did count the Hellenes/greeks as a single group, might count, as they hellenized the romans, and them the turks.ummm

Suddenly reminded of that talk about the Chinese and Romans seeing each other as great empires that assimilated foreign people into their 'superior' cultures despite being conquered by them. Mixed with the whole Andalus-Japan comparisons...
 
Andalus is techically the Iberia Union but working, the Normand areas are not that much needed but seems it as good or even better footing than OTL Austrias where..just Andalus focus is on Al-Aqsa and the Indian ocean than Europe
Andalus also has a large part of North Africa, which is more developed ITTL, to draw on.
 
Yeah, I don't really imagine Al-Andalus really meddle with Europe that much beyond their area of interests. I imagine them going as far as reaching the Pryenne border and focusing in the Atlantic trade. The lack of War of Spanish Succession really points out how different this Europe would end up as well...
 
Yeah, I don't really imagine Al-Andalus really meddle with Europe that much beyond their area of interests. I imagine them going as far as reaching the Pryenne border and focusing in the Atlantic trade. The lack of War of Spanish Succession really points out how different this Europe would end up as well...
Massively, Of course Andalus and Earlier Ottoman/Rhomanoi changes a lot of things, almost everything, the same a more nordic/viking England too
 
Now I'm wondering which European nations would go colonize, if they would. I think Angland/Scandinavia would try to set up alt!Vinland or something but failed?
 
Al-Andalus's empire functions differently than Spain's. They're more interested in trade of manufactured products, cash/staple crops, and slaves rather than pure resource extraction that the Spanish did when they owned New Spain and Peru. Colonization has been pretty light, although it's steadily increasing as Andalusi and Berbers migrate out of the homeland for new opportunities in the Algarves, Africa, and Asia. In fact, they don't even possess the same gold and silver mines that Spain did because it's either not known to them (Cerro de Potosi) or owned by the Otomi Alliance or Iskantisuyu.

They function more closely to mercantile powers like Portugal, Britain, and the Netherlands, which probably won't change as Muslims and Jews will develop concepts like banking and companies due to necessity far earlier than OTL since first contact and colonization had a head start here. In fact, I think Al-Andalus also develops free trade and capitalism far earlier, given exposure to friendly Native/Islamic nations around the colonies instead of hostile Christian powers that England and Spain had, as well as future Sephardic Jew, Golahi Jew, Christian, and Muslim economists being able to discuss ideas with each other in a far more cosmopolitan and urban Europe and West Africa overall. Al-Andalus is also far more stable, as they would focus on a more isolationist stance on European politics, being a Muslim power that doesn't care for Christian religious/dynastic conflicts unless it threatens their interests.

A stable Maghrebi-Andalusian Union in modern MiaJ isn't a 100% possibility though. Nationalism amongst the Berbers could still be a thing and the central government still owns a far more disparate and expansive land than OTL Spain, even if the Andalusi and Berbers are a more closely knit pair of ethnic groups.

Gonig back to economics, slavery will even be far more intensive in this timeline than OTL, once Al-Andalus discovers how extremely productive Mawana, Burinkan, Al-Gattas, and the other Caribbean islands are in producing sugar and mara, as well as cotton, indigo, rice, tobacco, and cannabis production from Meshishib. Al-Andalus has an existing dependence on such cash crops or raw materials for their trade and textile empire, so this will only result in a massive expansion of such cash crop plantations. Even if the Hajib bans chattel slavery, it might inevitably happen due to the control of the cash crop barons or might evolve in a way to exploit loopholes amongst such laws.

In addition, Al-Andalus also has a far higher selection of slaves to choose from, with:
  • Siqlabi slaves from Russia, the Haemus, and the Caucasus
  • Zanj slaves from the interior of Africa
  • Nahua, Quechua and other Native Algarvian slaves as their populations recover from First Contact.
  • Heretical Christians from other European polities, making Al-Andalus a dumping ground to keep unorthodox ideas out of their lands.
Sexual slavery would be far more pervasive and open amongst the upper classes, with them having harems or access to both male and female sex slaves/prostitutes, rather than just a slave owner keeping a mistress for their perverted entertainment. It's going to be a far different beast from just standard African chattel slavery, even if slaves might have significantly more political power as soldiers or intellectuals.

Now I'm wondering which European nations would go colonize, if they would. I think Angland/Scandinavia would try to set up alt!Vinland or something but failed?

Angland is going to set up colonies, most definitely, given their stable political position, high population, and naval expertise. Scandinavian countries like Denmark and Sweden could also find more success than their OTL counterparts in establishing colonies. Lastly, I think the HRE is also an interesting possibility. They are far more centralized than OTL, and the Geroldseck Emperors might see the New World as a land of new opportunity amongst the rise of other Muslim/Christian powers. I doubt France would be able to maintain colonies, given how crippled they are militarily and economically by their separation from Provencia, but it'll be interesting to see them try.

EDIT #1: Reply to Yama951's comment on future Christian colonization of the Algarves.
EDIT #2: Nivek brought up a good point that the Otomi would not be part of the Native Algarvian slaves brought to the Andalusian colonies, but rather the slavers.
 
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In addition, Al-Andalus also has a far higher selection of slaves to choose from, with:
  • Siqlabi slaves from Russia, the Haemus, and the Caucasus
  • Zanj slaves from the interior of Africa, to
  • Nahua, Otomi, and other Native Algarvian slaves as their populations recover from First Contact.
  • Heretical Christians from other European polities, making Al-Andalus a dumping ground to keep unorthodox ideas out of their lands.
Sexual slavery would be far more pervasive and open amongst the upper classes, with them having harems or access to both male and female sex slaves/prostitutes, rather than just a slave owner keeping a mistress for their perverted entertainment. It's going to be a far different beast from just standard African chattel slavery, even if slaves might have significantly more political power as soldiers or intellectuals.
Cue my comments above, as say before i can see the convert Otomi being the ones slaving still pagans equivalents to sold them to the andalusi very easily too, much like africa, and as say before, as they already have the seaside routes, expansion of the population of Algraves thanks free and bonded colonist might come very fast
 
Angland is going to set up colonies, most definitely, given their stable political position, high population, and naval expertise. Scandinavian countries like Denmark and Sweden could also find more success than their OTL counterparts in establishing colonies. Lastly, I think the HRE is also an interesting possibility. They are far more centralized than OTL, and the Geroldseck Emperors might see the New World as a land of new opportunity amongst the rise of other Muslim/Christian powers. I doubt France would be able to maintain colonies, given how crippled they are militarily and economically by their separation from Provencia, but it'll be interesting to see them try.

I do recall a post talking about Vinland/Heavenland and how the modern day archaeologists discovered the site but it either wasn't colonized or failed to be colonized.
 
Cue my comments above, as say before i can see the convert Otomi being the ones slaving still pagans equivalents to sold them to the andalusi very easily too, much like africa, and as say before, as they already have the seaside routes, expansion of the population of Algraves thanks free and bonded colonist might come very fast

That's a good point that the Otomi might actually be the slavers of Mesoamerica instead of the enslaved, given their quick conversion to Islam. Another thing to point is that with the support of Andalusi and Berber intellectuals, soldiers, and other skilled specialists, as well as a recovering population might mean that they could set up the first true Mesoamerican empire modeled after the Old World (The Aztec Empire or the Maya Tikal/Calakmul Empires don't count, being a more hegemonic empire based on nominal submission or tribute instead of a true Old World Empire like the Chinese or the Ottomans).

I do recall a post talking about Vinland/Heavenland and how the modern day archaeologists discovered the site but it either wasn't colonized or failed to be colonized.

Yeah, the Vikings did settle Vinland/Heavenland earlier or at least around the POD, so they were the ones that discovered the Algarves first, instead of Al-Mustakhif, just like our own timeline, but Sweden did attempt to settle in the New World during the Age of Discovery, where their colonies got eaten up by other European powers. MiaJ Denmark and Sweden might find far more success in creating new colonies due to the divergences afforded in MiaJ.
 
That's a good point that the Otomi might actually be the slavers of Mesoamerica instead of the enslaved, given their quick conversion to Islam. Another thing to point is that with the support of Andalusi and Berber intellectuals, soldiers, and other skilled specialists, as well as a recovering population might mean that they could set up the first true Mesoamerican empire modeled after the Old World (The Aztec Empire or the Maya Tikal/Calakmul Empires don't count, being a more hegemonic empire based on nominal submission or tribute instead of a true Old World Empire like the Chinese or the Ottomans).
Excatly, i can see them doing the same the Mali and other african muslim nation at the time, as you say, all the ingredients them to become the local muslim power polity of the region are there, they've to use them properly to work
 
I do find it interesting on how ITTL's history, if ERE is seen as a continuation of Rome and not split off by historians as the Byzantines or something, the historical periods of Rome are Pagan Kingdom, Pagan Republic, Pagan Empire, Christian Empire, and Islamic Empire but it's all culturally Greek/Roman...
No Christian ruler sees the Bataids as legitimate successors of Rome. Their claim is recognized in their court and among their partisans, and the airs they put on are universally rejected in Christendom and in much of Islam. Part of why Romania can even call itself "Romania" is that, in their eyes, Rhomaion has fallen.
 
Al-Andalus's empire functions differently than Spain's. They're more interested in trade of manufactured products, cash/staple crops, and slaves rather than pure resource extraction that the Spanish did when they owned New Spain and Peru. Colonization has been pretty light, although it's steadily increasing as Andalusi and Berbers migrate out of the homeland for new opportunities in the Algarves, Africa, and Asia. In fact, they don't even possess the same gold and silver mines that Spain did because it's either not known to them (Cerro de Potosi) or owned by the Otomi Alliance or Iskantisuyu.

They function more closely to mercantile powers like Portugal, Britain, and the Netherlands, which probably won't change as Muslims and Jews will develop concepts like banking and companies due to necessity far earlier than OTL since first contact and colonization had a head start here. In fact, I think Al-Andalus also develops free trade and capitalism far earlier, given exposure to friendly Native/Islamic nations around the colonies instead of hostile Christian powers that England and Spain had, as well as future Sephardic Jew, Golahi Jew, Christian, and Muslim economists being able to discuss ideas with each other in a far more cosmopolitan and urban Europe and West Africa overall. Al-Andalus is also far more stable, as they would focus on a more isolationist stance on European politics, being a Muslim power that doesn't care for Christian religious/dynastic conflicts unless it threatens their interests.

A stable Maghrebi-Andalusian Union in modern MiaJ isn't a 100% possibility though. Nationalism amongst the Berbers could still be a thing and the central government still owns a far more disparate and expansive land than OTL Spain, even if the Andalusi and Berbers are a more closely knit pair of ethnic groups.

Gonig back to economics, slavery will even be far more intensive in this timeline than OTL, once Al-Andalus discovers how extremely productive Mawana, Burinkan, Al-Gattas, and the other Caribbean islands are in producing sugar, as well as cotton, indigo, rice, tobacco, and cannabis production from Meshishib. Al-Andalus has an existing dependence on such cash crops or raw materials for their trade and textile empire, so this will only result in a massive expansion of such cash crop plantations. Even if the Hajib bans chattel slavery, it might inevitably happen due to the control of the cash crop barons or might evolve in a way to exploit loopholes amongst such laws.

In addition, Al-Andalus also has a far higher selection of slaves to choose from, with:
  • Siqlabi slaves from Russia, the Haemus, and the Caucasus
  • Zanj slaves from the interior of Africa
  • Nahua, Quechua and other Native Algarvian slaves as their populations recover from First Contact.
  • Heretical Christians from other European polities, making Al-Andalus a dumping ground to keep unorthodox ideas out of their lands.
Sexual slavery would be far more pervasive and open amongst the upper classes, with them having harems or access to both male and female sex slaves/prostitutes, rather than just a slave owner keeping a mistress for their perverted entertainment. It's going to be a far different beast from just standard African chattel slavery, even if slaves might have significantly more political power as soldiers or intellectuals.



Angland is going to set up colonies, most definitely, given their stable political position, high population, and naval expertise. Scandinavian countries like Denmark and Sweden could also find more success than their OTL counterparts in establishing colonies. Lastly, I think the HRE is also an interesting possibility. They are far more centralized than OTL, and the Geroldseck Emperors might see the New World as a land of new opportunity amongst the rise of other Muslim/Christian powers. I doubt France would be able to maintain colonies, given how crippled they are militarily and economically by their separation from Provencia, but it'll be interesting to see them try.

EDIT #1: Reply to Yama951's comment on future Christian colonization of the Algarves.
EDIT #2: Nivek brought up a good point that the Otomi would not be part of the Native Algarvian slaves brought to the Andalusian colonies, but rather the slavers.
This is a good post, but one question - what's a Golahi jew?
 
This is a good post, but one question - what's a Golahi jew?

Golahi Jews are Jews descended from Mizrahi Jews (Jews from North Africa and the Middle East) that fled towards West Africa due to the actions of the Al-Mutahirin rigorists during the 11th-12th century. As a result of intermarriage with West African pagans, they're a group of Black Jews separate from the Mizrahim, Sephardim, Beta Israel, and Askenazim lineages.

The Golahim are known in MiaJ for pioneering the bank in the Islamic world (ACT VIII, Part IX), possibly in the entire world, since I'm not sure if Christian banks exist or are even popular, due to no Crusades.
 
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77105_122205151173317_2545710_n.jpg
Wonder how long to get a build like this on Al-Aqsa(ignore modern stuff)
 
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