Keynes' Cruisers Volume 2

[Palantir]

1. The Germans released all surrendered Greek prisoners right away. So no there is a large reserve of already trained soldiers.
2. The police is anything but non existent, both the cities police and the gendarmerie were left in place and continued to operate through the occupation and after the liberation. Same for the civil service which was operating. As for the resistance, of course it will be integrated into the army and one notes it's military organisation was following that of the pre-war army in the first place.
3. Is a legitimate concern, but one notes that the calculations are leaving a 44% overhead already and say mostly nothing of manpower older than 35.
4. This was covered in the previous post, including US army sources available online. There is sufficient equipment in 1943 for up to 8 divisions in the US. I'd question myself if there is sufficient shipping to move that to Greece. But still the allies have already made here an initial commitment similar to Italy with 9 divisions landing in Greece. If you need 12-15 divisions or more in the Balkans to the end of the war they need to come from somewhere and the only reasonable source of manpower is locally.

1. First thing first, I didn't know that, and it goes a long way to explain the level of partisan activity during the occupation (that and the fact they resistance movement got their hand on an important part of the Italian matériel in 43).
I must ask if you (or anybody) knows why the release? Was it a logistical point? An racist one? Does the fact that the nearest Allied base was more than 500 km away was taken into account? Because with Crete staying in Allied hands might prompt the German to keep at least part of the prisoners under guard.

2. Like in France OTL, it doesn't mean they are not wholly seen as collaborators and that the resistance movements, particularly the communists ones, aren't better armed than them. And OTL they weren't enough to prevent OTL.
The way I see it, the second line units provides the security and labor duty, and keep the young men under control, until (or if) the matériel and equipment is made available.

3. I still think you under estimates the general disorganization from the 2 campaigns and the occupation

4. I was just saying that the Greeks won't be the first priority, even if the shipping ITTL is less tight than OTL, and if the US production is ahead of OTL.
Clothing and food were scares during winter 44-45 in the French Army (My grand-father was part of the Colmar Pocket campaign and the few stories he told were particularly grim on those parts).

 

[formion]

Because with Crete staying in Allied hands might prompt the German to keep at least part of the prisoners under guard.

As early as April 16th Hitler declared that he wished the Greek POWs to be released, due to their honourable conduct. He repeated his intent on May 4th in a Reichstag peace. These actions were before the battle of Crete, while Crete seemed to be secure under British control. So, it seems that the case of Greek POWs should be the same in TTL.

It seems to me that the release was officially a PR gesture. Unofficially, the Heer apparatus was preparing for Barbarossa. At that point, the german war economy hadn't suffer the manpower losses of winter 1941 and in any case was looking towards slave labour from the USSR. Regarding workers/POWs with technical expertise, they would be served better by French, Belgians and fellow Aryans. Only the dearth of labour in 1944 made the Germans look south for greek workers.

 

[militates]

ction

 

[GDIS Pathe]

Well looks like Churchill managed to get his "soft underbelly"

This is gonna be interesting

 

[formion]

The landing in Attica, it would be great if it produced small butterflies for the Holocaust. The Thessaloniki Sephardi community had already been rounded up in March 1943. However, there is still hope for a lot of the small Romaniote Jewish communities in the rest of the country that are still in place. These were ancient communities from the Hellenistic/Roman times and had developed their own unique jewish culture separately from the Sephardim and Ashkenazim.

Now that the focus of the thread is on Greece I would like to share the heart warming story of the Jewish community in Zakynthos island. When the German authorities requested a list with the local Jews, both mayor Loukas Karrer and bishop Chrysostomos protested. The bishop went as far as to declare the local Jews under his protection and requested to send a letter to the authorities in Berlin. When pressured, the bishop and the mayor sent a list comprised only with their own names.

The local commandant entertained the bishop and finally allowed him to send the letter and wait for a response from Berlin. However, the letter was just a way to stall for a few days. By the time of the Berlin response, all 275 Jews were dispersed on the hills to be hidden by christian families. In the coming months not a single family betrayed a hidden Jew despite german investigations. The Zakynthos Jewish community was one of the very few in occupied Europe that survived totally intact.

 

[fester]

Batavia, July 23, 1943

Queen Mary left the crowded harbor under the cover of night. Two Dutch destroyers and the light cruiser Jacob van Heemskerck would gallop with the liner to the Sunda Strait. The short legged destroyers could go no further at the speed the trooper wanted to make. The light cruiser would escort her to Darwin before her bunkers had to be refilled. Aboard the ship were two brigades of veterans. Both would eventually end up in Southern England. The 2nd Free Dutch Infantry Brigade would be there within ninety days. The exiles and expatriates would be the nucleus of a new division of Dutch troops that would attract another brigade from the fighting on Java and Bali and be filled out by the scattered remains of the Dutch field forces that had never been sent overseas.

C-Force was heading home. The liner would deposit almost four thousand Canadians in Vancouver. Of the two thousand men who had left Canada in October 1941, only twelve hundred were aboard the liner. Four hundred and eighteen rested in Dutch cemeteries. Over three hundred had been evacuated to hospitals in Singapore, India, Australia, South Africa and Canada. A few had volunteered to remain behind in staff and training roles. Another battalion had reinforced the two battalion brigade. They too had taken casualties proportionate to those taken by its sister battalions. And then quartermasters, mechanics, gunners and truck drivers followed the three fighting battalions. They were all going home. Once the ship docked in Vancouver, the brigade would march through the streets to camps just outside the city. The men who had been overseas the longest would be given immediate sixty day leaves. The rest would get thirty and forty five day leaves. Once they had visited their families or seen the joys of a quiet and secured civilian rear area with cokes and smokes available for a few coins, orders would disperse the men. Half the men would be sent to England to the ever growing Canadian army there. Veterans would be spread, three or four in a company to stiffen the volunteers who had just been waiting for combat for years. Platoon leaders would become company commanders, company commanders would be given battalions. The brigade commander would be a new division commander. Another quarter of the men would be held back to rebuild the brigade with new recruits while the rest were being dispersed to training commands. None would see combat for at least the time it took for the luckiest man to see his yet to be conceived son.

As the mighty liner left the harbor, her whistle tooted in salute.

 

[Unknown]

The landing in Attica, it would be great if it produced small butterflies for the Holocaust. The Thessaloniki Sephardi community had already been rounded up in March 1943. However, there is still hope for a lot of the small Romaniote Jewish communities in the rest of the country that are still in place. These were ancient communities from the Hellenistic/Roman times and had developed their own unique jewish culture separately from the Sephardim and Ashkenazim.

Now that the focus of the thread is on Greece I would like to share the heart warming story of the Jewish community in Zakynthos island. When the German authorities requested a list with the local Jews, both mayor Loukas Karrer and bishop Chrysostomos protested. The bishop went as far as to declare the local Jews under his protection and requested to send a letter to the authorities in Berlin. When pressured, the bishop and the mayor sent a list comprised only with their own names.

The local commandant entertained the bishop and finally allowed him to send the letter and wait for a response from Berlin. However, the letter was just a way to stall for a few days. By the time of the Berlin response, all 275 Jews were dispersed on the hills to be hidden by christian families. In the coming months not a single family betrayed a hidden Jew despite german investigations. The Zakynthos Jewish community was one of the very few in occupied Europe that survived totally intact.

Damn, have they made a movie about that; sounds like it'd be a good one...

 

[formion]

Unfortunately there is only a documentary in greek on the story

I couldn't find any subtitles in english ... Jewish survivors and the widow of the mayor recalled their experiences.

 

[Driftless]

Unfortunately there is only a documentary in greek on the story

I couldn't find any subtitles in english ... Jewish survivors and the widow of the mayor recalled their experiences.

Sometimes, I think the world is going to hell, but histories like these remind me that there are also many great and courageous people out there.

 

[fester]

Saigon, July 23, 1943

The Oscars circled the city. Beneath the defending fighters, the rail yards were burning again. Five squadrons of twin engine bombers and three squadrons of escorting fighters were heading back to the airfields near Bangkok. Two of the attackers had been seen to have crashed in the city; one, a Martin bomber flown by a recently arrived Free French crew had belly landed in the river. The pilot had already been beheaded by the occupation forces.

 

[fester]

Near Tsushimas Straits July 23, 1943

HMS Trooper turned to the south away from the freshly laid minefield that overlapped the site of Japan's greatest victory. It would be the scene of an incremental aspect of her greatest defeat too. Three days later, a 2,900 ton tramp steamer carrying ore from Pusan to Kyoto hit one of the mines and went to the bottom in under thirteen minutes.

 

[SsgtC]

Near Tshushima Straits, July 23, 1943

HMS Trooper turned to the south away from the freshly laid minefield that overlapped the site of Japan's greatest victory. It would be the scene of an incremental aspect of her greatest defeat too. Three days later, a 2,900 ton tramp steamer carrying coal from Pusan to Kyoto hit one of the mines and went to the bottom in under thirteen minutes.

Needs a threadmark. Also, I really love how you show random smaller aspects of the war. In this case, showing the noose tightening around Japan

 

[NHBL]

I always smile when I see more of this post; the war seems as real as the one we had to face in OTL...head down the Chronobahn, remember to MAKE that left turn at Albuquerque, and you might just get there.

 

[fester]

South of Greenland, July 23, 1943

The big lumbering bomber turned away. Soon the radar operator would turn off his gear. Soon, eyes that had been scanning the surface would relax. Soon, the pilot would claw for altitude and a margin of error.

Forty seven merchant ships had made another hundred and twelve miles in the journey to Liverpool. The escorts danced around the edges of the perimeter. Crews prepared for a possible night battle even as the wizards running the Huff Duff and the radars saw nothing. Preparation and boredom was better than laziness and then shock.

 

[Draconis]

"The big lumbering bomber......" RAF Coastal Command Liberators preparing for anti-Uboat patrols over the North Atlantic.

 

[sonofpegasus]

I notice the third liberator from the front appears to have a chin centimetric radar fitted and possibly the fifth one as well! The other Aircraft have side lobe aerials on the fuselage side not along the top so they are quite late modals as well. Any date or location for the picture?

 

[Butchpfd]

I notice the third liberator from the front appears to have a chin centimetric radar fitted and possibly the fifth one as well! The other Aircraft have side lobe aerials on the fuselage side not along the top so they are quite late modals as well. Any date or location for the picture?

May be earlier then later in the war as it appears there is construction materials to the right of the control block, indicating early stages, or an expansion. I would look at the introduction date of the radar types and the variant of the B-24.

 

[Draconis]

I notice the third liberator from the front appears to have a chin centimetric radar fitted and possibly the fifth one as well! The other Aircraft have side lobe aerials on the fuselage side not along the top so they are quite late modals as well. Any date or location for the picture?

These Liberators belonged to RAF no.120 squadron flying Mark III Libs and RAF no.86 squadron flying Mark Vs. The air base is located in Northern Ireland at Aldergrove. The photo was likely taken after 1942 but I can't find the exact date.

 

[fester]

Aegean Sea, July 23, 1943

Aboard the carrier Wasp, a signalman laughed. He flashed open the light to acknowledge the receipt of the message from the small Greek destroyer.

HOW MUCH ICE CREAM IS A JAROSHEK WORTH?​

An hour later, a bosun's chair was rigged between the two ships. The critical cargo of twelve gallons of vanilla ice cream and four hundred Hershey bars went first. Only after the payment was received, did the Major go across the sea.

Forty seven minutes later, the destroyer took up position near the damaged cruiser Averoff. An Italian bomber placed two five hundred and fifty one pound bombs across her stern. The old cruiser was slowly making her way to Alexandria for assessment and repair.

 

[fester]

Kiev, July 24, 1943

The division was supposed to be heading north. Two Panzer divisions and three Panzer grenedier divisions had already started to unload at Smolensk. This division along with another motorized division would be the second wave of the back hand blow being prepared to make the Reds bleed south of Rhzev by cutting off their overly ambitious spearheads and savaging the foot slogging infantry. However there was a shouting match going on near the switches that would send the trains north. New orders had been cut. The division would now be heading west and then south to Greece.