What if Jane Seymour hadn't died of postnatal complications? How might things be different?
Well, Henry isn't marrying AOC, Kitty Howard or Kate Parr for starters. He'll never forsake the mother of his heir.
That being said, Jane isn't Henry's typical 'type'. He seems to have preferred educated women, given the choice - AOC was a political match and seems to have blossomed in England anyway, and Kitty was very much Henry's midlife crisis wife... Jane's chief attraction is that she's the opposite of Anne Boleyn. I'd say that, given a couple of years for the shine to wear off, Henry will soon be philandering again - and it is possible that, with Jane so much less of a strong character than either of Henry's first two wives, that his mistresses become something of a fixture of a Court within a court, wielding far more influence than the woman who wears the crown.
And of course, Henry will want another child out of Jane, if not more than one. So, of course, a lot hinges on whether Jane manages to produce a Duke of York (or even another Princess, Henry might be more willing to countenance a daughter this time around, if she already has an older brother...)
Let's say Jane and Henry have the following kids:
How do you think they would marry? Let's assume Jane's survival butterflies away Edward's early death. I assume the Duke of York or Richmond is likely offered in Edward's place for Mary, Queen of Scots and the other (assuming Edward survives to marry Elisabeth of Valois) marries a lower level princess like a Vasa sister or (for maximum butterflies) Caterina of Portugal.
- Edward, Duke of Cornwall (1537)
- John, Duke of York (1539)
- Henry, Duke of Richmond (1541)
One question is if Mary and Elizabeth marry ITTL. Jane seemed keen to reconcile Mary with Henry and might have encouraged him to let the girl to wed
I could definitely see Dudley for Elizabeth (let Ambrose or Guildford marry Amy in Robert's place). As for Mary, maybe she's the unfortunate soul stuck with Thomas Seymour, or another noble like Henry Neville, Earl of Westmorland (who was a Mary supporter IOTL).Two part response because I’m on a bus with spotting WiFi and don’t want to loose everything I typed up
I could see Jane becoming the champion of Mary and the still undecided mistress becoming Elizabeth’s champion. I don’t see Henry re-legitimatizing Mary either with Jane as champion; Jane just doesn't have the chops to handle Henry like Catherine Parr did.
Depending on the mistress, (side note, does anyone have an opinion or can I just declare Catherine Parr the mistress?) I could see Elizabeth being re-legitimized.
But, for fun, let’s say both get reconciled to Henry, but neither are re-legitimized. I could see local marriages, maybe Elizabeth gets to marry her Robert?
Henry VIII will stil” likely try to get Mary Stuart for his heir (but here offering also his second son). In OTL Edward was super Protestant, get to choose his own bride and picked Elisabeth of France so is likely who will be much interested in marrying her also hereOne issue with Edward’s marriage would be just how his religious feelings develop. Could Jane’s influences moderate his OTL Protestant feelings? Making him more Henry VIII’s “Catholic but I’m in charge”? Or just drive Edward further into the Protestant camp. Because I’d say it safe to bet that Edward inherited just a little of Henry’s VIII’s “I’m going to do the exact opposite of what’s you said, because you are not the boss of me”.
If Edward is super Protestant, I don’t see Elisabeth Valois being his bride. Since Henry VIII probably dies on schedule, Edward would be picking his own bride. So, I’d guess either Anna of Saxony or Cecilia of Sweden (pre scandal) (since she was apparently a looker, and if Edward takes after his father, that will matter to him more that it should).
I’d say John of York for Mary, Queen of Scots is a pretty safe bet. Though religion would be “fun” in that marriage. Though John’s religions feelings could swing pretty much any direction.
Henry of Richmond could probably get away with marrying locally, so I’d say pretty much any bride would be acceptable for him.
Henry VIII will stil” likely try to get Mary Stuart for his heir (but here offering also his second son). In OTL Edward was super Protestant, get to choose his own bride and picked Elisabeth of France so is likely who will be much interested in marrying her also here
Katherine Parr was a pious protestant, she was not going be #17 in the conga line of Henry VIII's mistresses. She'll marry Thomas Seymour as she wanted to in the first place and possibly have a couple of little Seymours to get into mischief in the next generation.
Jane: given her difficultly with delivering Edward, either he was breech or she lacked, what my friend often referred to as her own "German birthing hips" (wide pelvis). Second baby will be iffy and might kill her if the pelvis is the reason. Jane may well be the reason Mary weds. (Elizabeth will be the perpetual bastard under Jane.) But Jane will stay out of politics and perhaps religion as well - her family has had court connections long enough for her to know which way to trim her sails.
Well considering who in OTL he do not backed out as Elisabeth was engaged to Edward until his death I do not think who Henry II will backed out with Edward surviving. Both England and France needed that wedding and alliance and the Pope can not change that. A French princess for Edward is a much better and much more prestigious match than any Protestant princess so he will not search another brideConsidering the Pope’s extreme disapproval, I’m going to guess that Henry II (Elisabeth Valois’s Dad) would’ve backed out. But that’s just me since I think it would been interesting to have a Protestant bride for Edward.
Orleans is way too young for Mary (if you are talking about Charles) and the only French match was ever considered for her was the one with Dauphin Francis. In any case both the Portuguese and the French match require Mary being reinstated as Princess of England and legitimate daughter of King Henry VIII by his rightful Queen Katherine of Aragon (and that will happen only over the dead body of Henry VIII)Why would Mary marry locally and to a Seymour? She already submitted to her father's will, there's no reason for further humiliation. Before Jane died, Charles was pressing for Mary's marriage to Don Luis of Portugal. I think the Duke of Orleans was also offered after Jane's death?
Why would Mary marry locally and to a Seymour? She already submitted to her father's will, there's no reason for further humiliation. Before Jane died, Charles was pressing for Mary's marriage to Don Luis of Portugal. I think the Duke of Orleans was also offered after Jane's death?
Also, if Elizabeth was awarded her own title to hold but not her, Mary would be insulted.
Mistresses will come however the range of influence will not be particularly great. So i think that the catholic in all but name and head will be the dominant government. Now assuming edward still dies around the same time which is a big if. Then i do think that mary’s attempt to return england back to the fold will not be as much of a struggle. Especially as a lot of england would still be catholic and the english churches doctrine is pretty much the same so i would be too wild to assume that they move back to catholism relatively easily
Thats my point england will be doctrinally catholic just different head and assuming this continues to influence edward then it likely goes the same as before catholic but with the king as head. Unless he dies llike otl in which england will have a smoother transition back ender mary with less die hard protestants. However if he continues to rule then more of the same.The logic, as discussed above, was Jane would champion Mary and since Jane doesn’t have the skills to do so doesn’t get very far. A marriage to her brother was the best she could get for Mary. While Elizabeth is being championed by the long time mistress Chatherine Parr who, as we see OTL, can totally handle Henry.
Even with a Church of England staying very much Catholic in form, I can’t see Henry ever backing down on the whole, “I am the head of the Church of England” thing. He hated to be wrong and loved to be in charge.