WI: Jane Seymour survives

[Cate13]

Thats my point england will be doctrinally catholic just different head and assuming this continues to influence edward then it likely goes the same as before catholic but with the king as head. Unless he dies llike otl in which england will have a smoother transition back ender mary with less die hard protestants. However if he continues to rule then more of the same.

But, with the Church of England nominally Catholic, that leaves a lot of room for the Mistress, (Catherine Parr or whomever), to influence Henry towards a more Protestant leanings.

And on your point about mistresses coming and going, with Henry stuck with Jane, the antithesis of his type, I could easily see a long term mistress. This mistress wouldn’t have to have a lot of influence, just more than Jane which wouldn’t be hard.

Also, without Mary being re-legitimized (since even if Catherine Parr is the mistress she’s not going to champion Mary and Jane doesn’t have the chops to get mary re-legitimized) and Jane having another son or two, Mary is never sitting on the English throne.

So, wether slow or fast, unseen Henry, Edward or Edward’s heir, England’s heading towards Protestantism.

 

[FalconHonour]

Mary and Thomas Seymour? What's poor Mary done to deserve that?
Other than that, I love it!

 

[Cate13]

Mary and Thomas Seymour? What's poor Mary done to deserve that?
Other than that, I love it!

With Mary having the best claim of Henry’s illegitimate daughters, I figure he wouldn’t let Mary marry out of the country, and Seymour’s tied pretty tight to the throne. But if you have a suggestion, I open to it I’ll probably alter the tree a couple times before I’m happy with it.

 

[isabella]

Mary and Thomas Seymour? What's poor Mary done to deserve that?
Other than that, I love it!

Oh, please Thomas Seymour is the perfect choice for Mary (sure he was not a good person but here we are talking about politic) and for the same reasons for which Mary is so often married off to George Boleyn (or ATL brother) in fics.

With Mary having the best claim of Henry’s illegitimate daughters, I figure he wouldn’t let Mary marry out of the country, and Seymour’s tied pretty tight to the throne. But if you have a suggestion, I open to it I’ll probably alter the tree a couple times before I’m happy with it.

Exactly

 

[FalconHonour]

Oh, please Thomas Seymour is the perfect choice for Mary (sure he was not a good person but here we are talking about politic) and for the same reasons for which Mary is so often married off to George Boleyn (or ATL brother) in fics.


Exactly

I'm not denying the political sense of the match. I just don't see them having a happy marriage at all. Why can't she have Henry Seymour, rather than Thomas? He and Katherine Parr would be perfectly matched here.

Mary to Henry Seymour and Thomas to Katherine Parr. Henry Seymour makes as much sense as Thomas. He has all the same advantages (and doesn't make my skin crawl).

 

[isabella]

I'm not denying the political sense of the match. I just don't see them having a happy marriage at all. Why can't she have Henry Seymour, rather than Thomas? He and Katherine Parr would be perfectly matched here.

Mary to Henry Seymour and Thomas to Katherine Parr. Henry Seymour makes as much sense as Thomas. He has all the same advantages (and doesn't make my skin crawl).

Oh, well... can work... I think who @Cate13 like me had forgotten who Edward and Thomas had another brother (because Henry is practically unknown unlike his brothers).

Yes Henry married to Mary and Thomas to Katherine Parr, mistress of the King (aka Henry marrying his mistress to his brother-in-law) would work perfectly.

 

[FalconHonour]

Oh, well... can work... I think who @Cate13 like me had forgotten who Edward and Thomas had another brother (because Henry is practically unknown unlike his brothers).

Yes Henry married to Mary and Thomas to Katherine Parr, mistress of the King (aka Henry marrying his mistress to his brother-in-law) would work perfectly.

Henry was nowhere near as ambitious as his brothers - which Henry could see as an advantage for Mary's husband. After all, he must know, even if he won't admit it, that the chances of his actually living to see Edward reach his majority are slim. And Mary is a grown woman. Whether she herself wants it or not, she would automatically be a lightening rod for anyone disaffected by Edward's reign. Marrying her off to an unambitious uncle of the King would not be a bad thing.

 

[FalconHonour]

Here is my suggestion for the family tree:

King Henry VIII of England (b.1491: d.1545) m. Catherine of Aragon (b.1485: d.1536) (a), Anne Boleyn (b.1501 d. 1536) (b), Jane Seymour (b. 1508, d. 15??) (c); p. Elizabeth Blount (b.1498)

1a) Lady Mary Tudor (b.1516) m. Sir Henry Seymour (m.1538)

1) Lady Jane Seymour (b. 1540 d. 1551)

2) Lady Katherine Seymour (b. 1542)

3) Miscarriage (1544)

4) Lord Henry Seymour (b. 1545)

5) Lord Edward Seymour b. and d. 1547 [1]

6) Miscarriage (1548)

2d) Lord Henry Fitzroy, Duke of Richmond and Somerset (b.1519: d.1536)

3b) Lady Elizabeth Tudor, Marquess of Pembroke (b. 1533, d. 1562) m. Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester (b. 1532) m. 1551

1) Lady Anne Dudley (b.1553)

2) Lady Katherine Dudley (b.1555)

3) Lord Henry Dudley (b.1557 d. 1561)

4) Lord Edward Dudley (b.1558)

5) Miscarriage (1559)

6) Lady Mary Dudley (1561)

7) Lord Robert Dudley (1561) [2]


4c) Prince Edward Tudor of Wales / King Edward VI England (b. 1537-1588) m. Dorothea of Denmark m. 1560

1) Princess Elizabeth Tudor (b. 1563) Later Queen Elizabeth.

2) Prince Henry Tudor (b.1566 d.1567)

3) Prince Henry Tudor (b.1569 d. 1575)

4) Princess Dorothy Tudor (b.1572)

5) Prince George Tudor (b.1576 d. 1584)

6) Princess Jane Tudor (b. 1578 d. 1583) [3]

5c) Princess Margaret Tudor (1539) m. Albert of Saxony [4]

[1] Assuming Henry's death sends Mary into early labour here, so her son is born prematurely and doesn't survive for more than hours/days past birth.

[2] Mary and Robert Dudley are twins, which weakens Elizabeth's health, meaning the smallpox in 1562 kills her rather than her surviving.

[3] Dorothea was incredibly lucky with the number of children she had survive into adulthood, but I figure Edward's dubious health in his teen might well affect his fertility, so I have given her a record that echoes Katherine of Aragon's here.

[4] Younger brother of William of Orange's wife Anna of Saxony. Butterflies are keeping him alive - and Saxony is helpfully Protestant at this point, so I'd say Edward would marry his sister to a Protestant on the Continent.

 

[Welshroyalhistory]

I'm confused by the repeated suggestion that somehow Henry VIII was capable of being dominated by mistresses. There is no evidence of this beyond his infatuation with Anne Boleyn, which was largely driven by his sexual obsession for her and his belief that she would give him a son. In this scenario where Jane Seymour produces a son and possibly more, no other woman is going to be capable of having that kind of emotional impact on Henry.

Antonia Fraser in her definitive biography of Henry VIII & His Six Wives speculates about what would have happened had Henry, Duke of Cornwall (b 1511) survived, even if all her other children had died and what that would have meant for Catherine of Aragon and also Anne Boleyn. Antonia states, quite accurately in my view, that Catherine would have been wholly secure in her position until her death. By the time Anne Boleyn entered Henry VIII's life, the now teenage Henry, Duke of Cornwall would be a key player on the European royal marriage scene.

Henry may have still dallied with Anne Boleyn, but he would do nothing to jeopardise the legitimacy of his son, heir and future of his dynasty and Anne in turn would not have seen much benefit for holding out in the dream that Henry would bastardise his teenage son and heir just to get her into bed and then make her his Queen. She would have likely succumbed to his charms and use it as a way of securing a better husband for herself.

Mistresses will come and go, Jane may be embarrassed but she will keep her head up as she is The Queen, which she will remain. However I do think Henry's behaviour and psychology will be changed by the birth of Prince Edward, the survival of Queen Jane and maybe the birth of further children. He was never actually the lothario he has been portrayed as being. I can almost imagine him settled down into genteel domesticity and he may not actually pursue other women.

 

[isabella]

Here is my suggestion for the family tree:

King Henry VIII of England (b.1491: d.1545) m. Catherine of Aragon (b.1485: d.1536) (a), Anne Boleyn (b.1501 d. 1536) (b), Jane Seymour (b. 1508, d. 15??) (c); p. Elizabeth Blount (b.1498)

1a) Lady Mary Tudor (b.1516) m. Sir Henry Seymour (m.1538)

1) Lady Jane Seymour (b. 1540 d. 1551)

2) Lady Katherine Seymour (b. 1542)

3) Miscarriage (1544)

4) Lord Henry Seymour (b. 1545)

5) Lord Edward Seymour b. and d. 1547 [1]

6) Miscarriage (1548)

2d) Lord Henry Fitzroy, Duke of Richmond and Somerset (b.1519: d.1536)

3b) Lady Elizabeth Tudor, Marquess of Pembroke (b. 1533, d. 1562) m. Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester (b. 1532) m. 1551

1) Lady Anne Dudley (b.1553)

2) Lady Katherine Dudley (b.1555)

3) Lord Henry Dudley (b.1557 d. 1561)

4) Lord Edward Dudley (b.1558)

5) Miscarriage (1559)

6) Lady Mary Dudley (1561)

7) Lord Robert Dudley (1561) [2]


4c) Prince Edward Tudor of Wales / King Edward VI England (b. 1537-1588) m. Dorothea of Denmark m. 1560

1) Princess Elizabeth Tudor (b. 1563) Later Queen Elizabeth.

2) Prince Henry Tudor (b.1566 d.1567)

3) Prince Henry Tudor (b.1569 d. 1575)

4) Princess Dorothy Tudor (b.1572)

5) Prince George Tudor (b.1576 d. 1584)

6) Princess Jane Tudor (b. 1578 d. 1583) [3]

5c) Princess Margaret Tudor (1539) m. Albert of Saxony [4]

[1] Assuming Henry's death sends Mary into early labour here, so her son is born prematurely and doesn't survive for more than hours/days past birth.

[2] Mary and Robert Dudley are twins, which weakens Elizabeth's health, meaning the smallpox in 1562 kills her rather than her surviving.

[3] Dorothea was incredibly lucky with the number of children she had survive into adulthood, but I figure Edward's dubious health in his teen might well affect his fertility, so I have given her a record that echoes Katherine of Aragon's here.

[4] Younger brother of William of Orange's wife Anna of Saxony. Butterflies are keeping him alive - and Saxony is helpfully Protestant at this point, so I'd say Edward would marry his sister to a Protestant on the Continent.

Very plausible tree. I still think who Edward would marry Elisabeth of France over Dorothea as the only reason for marrying someone else (aka a Protestant bride) would be marrying earlier so we need someone closer to his own age more than a princess younger than Elisabeth or around her age. Cecilia of Sweden or her older sister Katarina would be more likely matches. If you want a Danish match then have Edward being engaged to Dorothea’s older sister Anne around 1547 (so before her wedding and any talk about Elisabeth). She is over five years older than Edward but would be a good choice if Edward’s council want a Protestant Queen and getting heirs quickly

 

[FalconHonour]

K
Very plausible tree. I still think who Edward would marry Elisabeth of France over Dorothea as the only reason for marrying someone else (aka a Protestant bride) would be marrying earlier so we need someone closer to his own age more than a princess younger than Elisabeth or around her age. Cecilia of Sweden or her older sister Katarina would be more likely matches

I see your point, and I was debating it, but I decided Edward would insist on a Protestant match in the end. As for not choosing a Swedish match, I didn't want to copy @Cate13 , to be honest. That's the only reason I didn't.

 

[WillVictoria]

Here is my suggestion for the family tree:

King Henry VIII of England (b.1491: d.1545) m. Catherine of Aragon (b.1485: d.1536) (a), Anne Boleyn (b.1501 d. 1536) (b), Jane Seymour (b. 1508, d. 15??) (c); p. Elizabeth Blount (b.1498)

1a) Lady Mary Tudor (b.1516) m. Sir Henry Seymour (m.1538)

1) Lady Jane Seymour (b. 1540 d. 1551)

2) Lady Katherine Seymour (b. 1542)

3) Miscarriage (1544)

4) Lord Henry Seymour (b. 1545)

5) Lord Edward Seymour b. and d. 1547 [1]

6) Miscarriage (1548)

2d) Lord Henry Fitzroy, Duke of Richmond and Somerset (b.1519: d.1536)

3b) Lady Elizabeth Tudor, Marquess of Pembroke (b. 1533, d. 1562) m. Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester (b. 1532) m. 1551

1) Lady Anne Dudley (b.1553)

2) Lady Katherine Dudley (b.1555)

3) Lord Henry Dudley (b.1557 d. 1561)

4) Lord Edward Dudley (b.1558)

5) Miscarriage (1559)

6) Lady Mary Dudley (1561)

7) Lord Robert Dudley (1561) [2]


4c) Prince Edward Tudor of Wales / King Edward VI England (b. 1537-1588) m. Dorothea of Denmark m. 1560

1) Princess Elizabeth Tudor (b. 1563) Later Queen Elizabeth.

2) Prince Henry Tudor (b.1566 d.1567)

3) Prince Henry Tudor (b.1569 d. 1575)

4) Princess Dorothy Tudor (b.1572)

5) Prince George Tudor (b.1576 d. 1584)

6) Princess Jane Tudor (b. 1578 d. 1583) [3]

5c) Princess Margaret Tudor (1539) m. Albert of Saxony [4]

[1] Assuming Henry's death sends Mary into early labour here, so her son is born prematurely and doesn't survive for more than hours/days past birth.

[2] Mary and Robert Dudley are twins, which weakens Elizabeth's health, meaning the smallpox in 1562 kills her rather than her surviving.

[3] Dorothea was incredibly lucky with the number of children she had survive into adulthood, but I figure Edward's dubious health in his teen might well affect his fertility, so I have given her a record that echoes Katherine of Aragon's here.

[4] Younger brother of William of Orange's wife Anna of Saxony. Butterflies are keeping him alive - and Saxony is helpfully Protestant at this point, so I'd say Edward would marry his sister to a Protestant on the Continent.

Given Edward's OTL view of female succession (which became an emergency option when it was clear no male heir was appearing in his lifetime ) I doubt he makes Elizabeth a Queen in her own right unless he has a massive change of heart. A more likely scenario is he marries off Elizabeth to the man he sees as first in line to the throne. Who that is depends on whether Henry VIII produces something akin to his OTL will giving Mary and Elizabeth a place in the line of succession and, if so, if Edward tries to use Mary's Catholicism (and possibly that of her children) to get them excluded.

1. There is no Henry VIII will, Mary and Lady Elizabeth are both bastards with no claim to the throne
   1. Elizabeth is married off to the eldest son of Jane Grey, if she has no sons go down the line of her sisters to find the first male heir
2. Mary and Elizabeth are in the line of succession, Mary's kids are raised protestant or Edward VI is a much more moderate protestant (Catholic in all but the question of who heads the church)
   1. Elizabeth is married off to Henry Seymour Jr, or if more age appropriate, his eldest son
3. Mary and Elizabeth are in the line of succession, Mary's kids are Catholic and Edward VI has a theological mindset similar to IOTL
   
   1. Elizabeth is married of to Edward Dudley

In any of these scenarios Edward VI is succeeded by Elizabeth (who may be treated as a co-monarch or consort) and his SIL.

 

[FalconHonour]

I'm confused by the repeated suggestion that somehow Henry VIII was capable of being dominated by mistresses. There is no evidence of this beyond his infatuation with Anne Boleyn, which was largely driven by his sexual obsession for her and his belief that she would give him a son. In this scenario where Jane Seymour produces a son and possibly more, no other woman is going to be capable of having that kind of emotional impact on Henry.

Antonia Fraser in her definitive biography of Henry VIII & His Six Wives speculates about what would have happened had Henry, Duke of Cornwall (b 1511) survived, even if all her other children had died and what that would have meant for Catherine of Aragon and also Anne Boleyn. Antonia states, quite accurately in my view, that Catherine would have been wholly secure in her position until her death. By the time Anne Boleyn entered Henry VIII's life, the now teenage Henry, Duke of Cornwall would be a key player on the European royal marriage scene.

Henry may have still dallied with Anne Boleyn, but he would do nothing to jeopardise the legitimacy of his son, heir and future of his dynasty and Anne in turn would not have seen much benefit for holding out in the dream that Henry would bastardise his teenage son and heir just to get her into bed and then make her his Queen. She would have likely succumbed to his charms and use it as a way of securing a better husband for herself.

Mistresses will come and go, Jane may be embarrassed but she will keep her head up as she is The Queen, which she will remain. However I do think Henry's behaviour and psychology will be changed by the birth of Prince Edward, the survival of Queen Jane and maybe the birth of further children. He was never actually the lothario he has been portrayed as being. I can almost imagine him settled down into genteel domesticity and he may not actually pursue other women.

He'd pursue other women simply because he'd see it as his right to do so. And I remember reading somewhere that Henry found it easier to take advice from a mistress than a wife because it didn't hurt his pride as much to yield to a mistress - everything he granted her was his gift, not her right as his wife. It might not be true, but it seems plausible enough to me.

 

[FalconHonour]

Given Edward's OTL view of female succession (which became an emergency option when it was clear no male heir was appearing in his lifetime ) I doubt he makes Elizabeth a Queen in her own right unless he has a massive change of heart. A more likely scenario is he marries off Elizabeth to the man he sees as first in line to the throne. Who that is depends on whether Henry VIII produces something akin to his OTL will giving Mary and Elizabeth a place in the line of succession and, if so, if Edward tries to use Mary's Catholicism (and possibly that of her children) to get them excluded.

1. There is no Henry VIII will, Mary and Lady Elizabeth are both bastards with no claim to the throne
   1. Elizabeth is married off to the eldest son of Jane Grey, if she has no sons go down the line of her sisters to find the first male heir
2. Mary and Elizabeth are in the line of succession, Mary's kids are raised protestant or Edward VI is a much more moderate protestant (Catholic in all but the question of who heads the church)
   1. Elizabeth is married off to Henry Seymour Jr, or if more age appropriate, his eldest son
3. Mary and Elizabeth are in the line of succession, Mary's kids are Catholic and Edward VI has a theological mindset similar to IOTL
   1. Elizabeth is married of to Edward Dudley

In any of these scenarios Edward VI is succeeded by Elizabeth (who may be treated as a co-monarch or consort) and his SIL.

Perfectly true, I shall amend the tree later.

 

[isabella]

I'm confused by the repeated suggestion that somehow Henry VIII was capable of being dominated by mistresses. There is no evidence of this beyond his infatuation with Anne Boleyn, which was largely driven by his sexual obsession for her and his belief that she would give him a son. In this scenario where Jane Seymour produces a son and possibly more, no other woman is going to be capable of having that kind of emotional impact on Henry.

Antonia Fraser in her definitive biography of Henry VIII & His Six Wives speculates about what would have happened had Henry, Duke of Cornwall (b 1511) survived, even if all her other children had died and what that would have meant for Catherine of Aragon and also Anne Boleyn. Antonia states, quite accurately in my view, that Catherine would have been wholly secure in her position until her death. By the time Anne Boleyn entered Henry VIII's life, the now teenage Henry, Duke of Cornwall would be a key player on the European royal marriage scene.

Henry may have still dallied with Anne Boleyn, but he would do nothing to jeopardise the legitimacy of his son, heir and future of his dynasty and Anne in turn would not have seen much benefit for holding out in the dream that Henry would bastardise his teenage son and heir just to get her into bed and then make her his Queen. She would have likely succumbed to his charms and use it as a way of securing a better husband for herself.

Mistresses will come and go, Jane may be embarrassed but she will keep her head up as she is The Queen, which she will remain. However I do think Henry's behaviour and psychology will be changed by the birth of Prince Edward, the survival of Queen Jane and maybe the birth of further children. He was never actually the lothario he has been portrayed as being. I can almost imagine him settled down into genteel domesticity and he may not actually pursue other women.

Well Anne Boleyn had never had any interest in Henry until she had no other choice to go along with his desire as she was never in the position to said an explicit no to the King (specially if and when he was offering marriage to her). If Henry had a son by a very alive Katherine he would be forced to renounce to Anne Boleyn and stop. The real Anne had never dreamed to become Queen, she simply had no interest in becoming Henry’s mistress (after what happened to her sister Mary) and likely she had no interest at all in Henry. In any case she had a too high moral principles for becoming the mistress of the King (and her family had no intention to push her in the bed of the King).

 

[Cate13]

Yes Henry married to Mary and Thomas to Katherine Parr, mistress of the King (aka Henry marrying his mistress to his brother-in-law) would work perfectly.

In this case how would Katherine Parr’s children be known? Does anyone know how a King’s illegitimate children with a married woman are treated if he wants to acknowledge them? Cause there are a few kids who might have been Henry’s OTL that are recorded as the children of their mother’s husband, but what if he wanted to acknowledge them? @FalconHonour @WillVictoria

 

[WillVictoria]

In this case how would Katherine Parr’s children be known? Does anyone know how a King’s illegitimate children with a married woman are treated if he wants to acknowledge them? Cause there are a few kids who might have been Henry’s OTL that are recorded as the children of their mother’s husband, but what if he wanted to acknowledge them? @FalconHonour @WillVictoria

Possibly Fitzroy (I'm thinking of the later case of Barbara Palmer and Charles II for that) but it depends on how willing Tom Seymour is willing to let his pride go (aka do the rewards of his wife being the King's mistress outweigh the possible dent in pride from acknowledging his kids are definitely the King (vs. probably the King's).

Otherwise, he could just gift the Seymour kids with loads of titles with their paternity being an open secret.

 

[Welshroyalhistory]

He'd pursue other women simply because he'd see it as his right to do so. And I remember reading somewhere that Henry found it easier to take advice from a mistress than a wife because it didn't hurt his pride as much to yield to a mistress - everything he granted her was his gift, not her right as his wife. It might not be true, but it seems plausible enough to me.

Where is the evidence of this though?

Henry had two notable mistresses apart from Anne Boleyn, Bessie Blount and Mary Boleyn. Neither exerted any power political despite the fact that they became Henry's mistress at a time when his consort, Catherine of Aragon was deeply weakened given her failure to produce a son and the fact that she was likely by that point unable to produce more children.

You have a very different situation, here we have a dominant and unassailable Queen Jane, mother of the King's son(s) and heir. Perhaps even more importantly, you have Jane's brothers, who are now going to be in a dominant position at Court. They are going to stop anyone and anything which threatens their sister.

I don't see any prospect of any woman managing to assert the kind of influence over the King that you suggest.

Henry was not interested in the day-to-day role of being King, he was surrounded by men who handled the management of the kingdom, the more sons Jane produces the more they are likely to be the Seymours.

 

[Welshroyalhistory]

In this case how would Katherine Parr’s children be known? Does anyone know how a King’s illegitimate children with a married woman are treated if he wants to acknowledge them? Cause there are a few kids who might have been Henry’s OTL that are recorded as the children of their mother’s husband, but what if he wanted to acknowledge them? @FalconHonour @WillVictoria

Its generally accepted by most authors on Henry VIII, that he was impotent by 1540.

The idea

Well Anne Boleyn had never had any interest in Henry until she had no other choice to go along with his desire as she was never in the position to said an explicit no to the King (specially if and when he was offering marriage to her). If Henry had a son by a very alive Katherine he would be forced to renounce to Anne Boleyn and stop. The real Anne had never dreamed to become Queen, she simply had no interest in becoming Henry’s mistress (after what happened to her sister Mary) and likely she had no interest at all in Henry. In any case she had a too high moral principles for becoming the mistress of the King (and her family had no intention to push her in the bed of the King).

Its difficult to say this because ultimately, Anne did indeed go to bed with Henry (and conceived) at a time that he was still married Catherine of Aragon.

 

[Cate13]

Where is the evidence of this though?

Henry had two notable mistresses apart from Anne Boleyn, Bessie Blount and Mary Boleyn. Neither exerted any power political despite the fact that they became Henry's mistress at a time when his consort, Catherine of Aragon was deeply weakened given her failure to produce a son and the fact that she was likely by that point unable to produce more children.

Actually, Anne did wield quite a bit of power as mistress (technically she wasn’t even a mistress yet). There’s the whole, break with the literal Catholic Church to get a divorce thing and in general she got her way quite a bit.

You have a very different situation, here we have a dominant and unassailable Queen Jane, mother of the King's son(s) and heir. Perhaps even more importantly, you have Jane's brothers, who are now going to be in a dominant position at Court. They are going to stop anyone and anything which threatens their sister.

But Jane isn’t going to be dominant. Yes she would be the mother of Henry’s heir, but she simply didn’t have the chops to stay a power in the court. Yes, she’s not going to be shown the door, but she’ll have next to know say no in anything. Her brothers will have influence, but their desire to succeed will see them pretty much backing whatever Henry says.

Its difficult to say this because ultimately, Anne did indeed go to bed with Henry (and conceived) at a time that he was still married Catherine of Aragon.

I’ve been always under the impression that Anne got stuck with a stalker who literally had the powered of life and death over her and her family, and made the best of it. First by holding him off with ‘I’m only sleeping without my husband’ then, by taking what she could get from this situation she wasn’t stuck in. Out doubt she started by wanting to be queen simply because it’s was so fantastically that a King would marry someone of her rank.