Operation Sea Lion (1974 Sandhurst Wargame)

i'm fascinated what kind of costal defences you can parachute out of a JU52 that will stop a destroyer coming alongside the quay at Cowes and unloading a company of marines.

37mm AT gun at most. Which becomes utterly irrelevant when HMS Unstoppable's captain tells his first officer: "Mr. Bradon? Tell Turret A to prioritize fire on the battery of AT guns on the hill at 9 o'clock."

You might theoretically be able to squeeze something heavier in, but getting it out quickly, like say, while under fire from the Royal Navy would require cutting open the airplane.
 
Not completely different. I have no doubt that the Royal Navy would disrupt the amphibious dimension of this Isle of Wight assault just as thoroughly as they disrupted the naval dimension of the invasion of Crete. Even more thoroughly, in fact.

But then, instead of successfully withdrawing the remains of the British forces as they did in Crete, they will doubtless remain in situ and turn their guns on the paratroopers. Perhaps Glenn could furnish us with the appropriate statistics for what happens when light infantry fight destroyers.

37mm AT gun at most. Which becomes utterly irrelevant when HMS Unstoppable's captain tells his first officer: "Mr. Bradon? Tell Turret A to prioritize fire on the battery of AT guns on the hill at 9 o'clock."

Bah, these are the Fallschirmjäger!!! As nimble as a greyhound, as tough as leather, as hard as Krupp steel!!! They will run out over the ocean carrying bottles full of benzin with flaming rags in the necks and burn down the British ships!!!
 
Bah, these are the Fallschirmjäger!!! As nimble as a greyhound, as tough as leather, as hard as Krupp steel!!! They will run out over the ocean carrying bottles full of benzin with flaming rags in the necks and burn down the British ships!!!

Ah silly me, I forgot the bit where Herr Hitler made an alliance with the Scarlet Empress for a few hundred Dragonblooded Exalted.
 
No doubt you'll now inform me that the LW cannot drive the RN out of Portsmouth in a month of bombing
Bombing? No it should be mining and bottle the RN in Portsmouth. What would the impact be on world opinion, confidence in the Pound, the City’s position etc. with Southampton and Portsmouth blocked? You don’t even need to drop real mines, just be seen to be doing it will cause disruption while the ‘mines’ are being swept.
 
Bombing? No it should be mining and bottle the RN in Portsmouth. What would the impact be on world opinion, confidence in the Pound, the City’s position etc. with Southampton and Portsmouth blocked? You don’t even need to drop real mines, just be seen to be doing it will cause disruption while the ‘mines’ are being swept.
i am just guessing here but it is probable that portsmouth contains the worlds largest collection of minesweeping gear/ships/personnel ever.just a guess tho.
 
i am just guessing here but it is probable that portsmouth contains the worlds largest collection of minesweeping gear/ships/personnel ever.just a guess tho.
"Right. We're looking for a minelaying boat to sail straight into the entrance of the largest naval base this side of Scapa Flow and drop some mines in sight of a battleship and more destroyers than our entire fleet. Volunteers?"
 

Ian_W

Banned
"Right. We're looking for a minelaying boat to sail straight into the entrance of the largest naval base this side of Scapa Flow and drop some mines in sight of a battleship and more destroyers than our entire fleet. Volunteers?"

If you carefully look at the Kriegsmarine plans, you'll note they didn't plan to start laying defensive minefields until shortly before the operation.

This means if the Luftwaffe is in fact unable to establish air supremacy over the RAF, and the invasion is therefore cancelled, they don't need to lose all their minelaying ships.
 
A German lodgement on the IoW will make perfect targets for the remaining Fairy Battle bombers left over after the fighting in France. Over the IoW the ONLY AA the FJ will have is machine guns, and there will be no fighter cover. Why Battles? No particular reason except to show that even an aircraft that was a suicide machine against fighters or well defended targets could bomb and strafe German troops on the IoW pretty much at leisure. They could probably chick hand grenades out of Lysanders...
 
I can't help but feel we've moved onto this Isle of Wight silliness due to a roundabout way of Glen silently conceding just how unworkable Sealion is and so now has to come up with a new bunch of shenanigans to try and justify.
 
A German lodgement on the IoW will make perfect targets for the remaining Fairy Battle bombers left over after the fighting in France. Over the IoW the ONLY AA the FJ will have is machine guns, and there will be no fighter cover. Why Battles? No particular reason except to show that even an aircraft that was a suicide machine against fighters or well defended targets could bomb and strafe German troops on the IoW pretty much at leisure. They could probably chick hand grenades out of Lysanders...

In other words, IoW become a target range.
 
I can't help but feel we've moved onto this Isle of Wight silliness due to a roundabout way of Glen silently conceding just how unworkable Sealion is and so now has to come up with a new bunch of shenanigans to try and justify.
In fact this is precisely why it was brought up the first time as its own thread ages ago -- if a full-on invasion of Great Britain can't work, why not a smaller target?

You might think the drastically diminished strategic value of conquering the Isle of Wight versus Great Britain might make a difference, but evidently no navy is too big and no island too small to deter a Teutonic knight.
 
I think we're on to something here, the proto genesis of the island hoping campaign.
Imagine if you will, a double envelopment.
From the north, using initially Norway as a base then a set of spring boards
The Shetlands
Orkney
Hebrides (outer of course..... I have thought about this in a preliminary feasibility study)
Isle of Man
From the south, using Jersey and Guernsey as training areas for island fighting, cow milking and potato growing (essential skills for the Heer)
Isle of Wight
Scilly Isles
Lundy
Then a closing of the Kessel in Angelsey
Job done
 

Deleted member 94680

Would the Germans have not been able to use gliders or air landing forces with heavier equipment? There are two extant airports in the Isle of Wight; how quickly would the British on the mainland begin bombarding airfields to deny them to the Germans? The same argument about the Royal Navy could have been made at Crete; is the Luftwaffe not as good at bombing ships in 1940 compared to 1941, and why? Would the defenders have been able to effectively coordinate artillery support from the mainland? Does anyone know how many defenders there were and where they were entrenched?

There are two extant airfields on the IoW today in the WWII period it was more like 6. But and this is the key point, all but one of them were rendered inoperable for the duration of the War. Somerton was the only field left operable and I imagine that would be decommissioned in the event of large landing or significant danger of capture.

That’s why I asked Glenn to proscribe which airfields he’s going on about capturing.

Otherwise, for any airlanding operation the Germans may need (they won’t, they will be bottled up on the beach or butchered at their landing sites) they will be reduced to choosing the best field they can find and crossing their fingers. Of course, surveying these fields will take time and isn’t the kind of thing that can be done mid-combat, so resupply by air is off the table until the upper hand has been significantly gained by the FJ. Which is unlikely with a lack of resupply.
 
Wow... something needs to be done about this thread.

I'm pretty sure everyone can see Glenn is a troll, so why don't we all stop engaging him?
 
I think we're on to something here, the proto genesis of the island hoping campaign.
Imagine if you will, a double envelopment.
From the north, using initially Norway as a base then a set of spring boards
The Shetlands
Orkney
Hebrides (outer of course..... I have thought about this in a preliminary feasibility study)
Isle of Man
From the south, using Jersey and Guernsey as training areas for island fighting, cow milking and potato growing (essential skills for the Heer)
Isle of Wight
Scilly Isles
Lundy
Then a closing of the Kessel in Angelsey
Job done
There's an ideal island that's lightly defended if you are invading from the North. Rockall and you would achieve complete tactical surprise as it's undefended.
 
So, I'm thinking about wargaming or atleast trying to see what would make an airborne landing, so provided this thread isn't dead by 8, or 9 my time, then we'll see what happens.


40$ says Hans forgets the 37mm AT gun and 75mm Recoilless rifle at home
 
Perhaps Glenn could furnish us with the appropriate statistics for what happens when light infantry fight destroyers.

It won't be pretty. RN destroyer captains were known for their timidity, so they'll hang about at the maximum range they can and fire off a few rounds before tossing the rest of their ammunition overboard and heading for home. Even if you somehow convince them to fight, what good will they do? Naval guncrews have no relevant training or experience for engaging land targets, so they can't be expected to hit anything, and even if they did the average shell only carries a kilo or so of HE - nowhere near enough to deal with troops dug in to the rolling hills and forests that cover the island.

Meanwhile, the light infantry will be shooting back with actual anti-tank guns. They're trained to shoot these at tanks, which are much smaller than destroyers, so they'll find it easy to place their hits for maximum damage, especially since destroyers are notorious for having little armour! The heavier guns and mortars will turn their attention from destroyer to destroyer in turn, blowing them apart with high-explosives they're absolutely unable to respond to.

The political shock will be immense as the RN is wiped out almost completely just outside its most famous naval base. With the armed forces unable to respond, panicked mobs will descend on London and demand the government make peace. I give them four weeks, tops, before they're forced to surrender, and that's if the Germans don't springboard off the Isle of Wight and take the whole country.
 
I feel like one of the commanders during the 100 years war

At some point at about 50 or 60 years in I can see them egging each other on "Go on....let try to make 100 years eh?"
 
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